Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility??
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Haithamflamenco
Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain
|
 question about Solea and Seguiriya f...
|
|
|
Hola gitanos,
I have this question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility??
I need a clear answer about it gitanos !!! when I start to play flamenco or any one we learn to play the Solea and Seguiriya in compass, all the newbies believe that,
but then I found that players play some flasetas or some part of the falseta in different compass and tembo,
lots of players told me that there is some flexibility, I know this flexibility will not exist in the baile , but I can clearly notice it in the cante and solo toque,
So, Ricardo or any one can clearfy this issue for me, lots of argument about it for long time,
ole
_____________________________
Bahrain is my country and Andalucia is my dream
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 26 2011 20:23:08
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: question about Solea and Seguiri... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)
|
|
|
quote:
is it the tempo changing or is it the compass on/off!!
I am asking this question just to clarify to my self and others about this point.
I know it can be confusing when we emphasize so strong to work with a metronome to internalize compas. Point is, working with a metronome and learning rhythm, you hopefully are learning to understand subdivision of the beat. When you are really in control of it, you realize that tempo can change by the way you express the subdivisions of the beat. So for example a dancer will speed up the tempo with her feet either with a lot of notes per beat getting faster and faster, or sometimes with contra tiempo, so that the musicians follow by holding onto the perceived beat via the other notes around the beat. As opposed to just stomping the beat and going faster each time.
But for solo playing you learn you can do the same with a falseta or strum. Not so strong as a dancer can if you have to lead palmeros but it CAN be done. But with an unaccompanied solo you are free to push and pull as you want. In classical music it is called rubato, and again it is a taste issue. In flamenco, when we make the tempo stretch we may slow down a melodic part to emphasize, or hold a chord that moves out of the normal tonal range....then the remates or endings that return home may speed up for drama....or a more viruosic passage may be pushed up a notch or two speedwise for more intensity....etc. But it is a taste issue and quite a different thing than not being in control of subdivision, slowing down for hard parts, moving too fast in easy parts etc. In the end a player with really good compas can stretch phrases more convincingly then one that struggles keeping a steady tempo normally.
So we emphasize to students to keep working with metronome, with the understanding that freedom, true freedom will come with discipline and knowledge.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 27 2011 0:31:01
|
|
KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
|
|
RE: question about Solea and Seguiri... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)
|
|
|
If your friend wants to accompany with rhythm then you both have to submit to a defined rhythm and tempo so you can play together. It's that simple. If you are playing solo, stretching the compas and don't want a defined rhythm, then your friend could just listen.
I have been listening to siguiriyas for over 30 years. The stretching of the compas has often been there. Of coarse there are some strict rhythmical versions as mentioned earlier, but often when accompanying the singer, the mood and tempo can fluctuate. I believe this has naturally spilt over into the solo playing from Moraito's era. The same can be said for Solea.
Now we have our modern recorded interpretations with percussion backing. Like Pepe Habichuelas siguiryas. Imho, approaching Siguiryas in this way is a relatively new concept. This modern driving rhythm style is a way of interpreting siguiriyas that has evolved in a new direction.
Prior to this modern style with pulsating rhythm, most earlier interpretations revolved around the cante. Maybe there are some, but most earlier solo guitar interpretations of siguiriyas(from Moraito's era) where not usually accompanied by palmas or percussion.
This is where the confusion starts. So i guess the question is. Do you want to play in the modern style accompanied by a driving rhythmical pulse? Or do you want to play in a style more like Moraitos exemplified version?
Understanding the compas and choosing to express a falseta in a way that upsets the flow of a rhythm, is different than simply playing out of compas. One is a choice and the other is forced due to not understand the rhythm, or being unable to follow it. If you understand the rhythm and choose to play in moraito's style and then others criticize your interpretation, then that's their decision.
Flamenco is a relatively new and evolving art form. Each generation takes what it likes best from the previous and builds upon it. Refining and better defining the concepts, rhythm and technique.
Anyway sorry to share my thoughts, I will let Ricardo answer.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 28 2011 11:25:20
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: question about Solea and Seguiri... (in reply to Haithamflamenco)
|
|
|
quote:
thanks Ricardo,
but if you allow me to ask further more, I will take an example of Moraito seguiriyas, if you try to count with him the beat of Seguiriya ait will not work! so is he at the begining playing an intro that is not into compass then he start the seguiriya? and or between the falsetas is making a gap ( one cycel) then he start the renate or the other falseta?
The intro is totally free then he starts compas with the strumming llamada. Later he plays very loose, much in the style of his uncle Manuel Morao. Actually we talked about this subject much in the past, please review Romerito's topic
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=167134&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=carrion
Also I transcribed a typical Manuel Morao Falseta por siguiriyas, and there is simply no way the math can work with any concept of normal or odd subdivisions that it equals siguiriya compas...if you were to write it on paper. But oddly enough, if I play it with a loop, it crosses compas and gets back on for the ending. Perhaps it is on a different level, but the idea I think is to suspend your concept of driving rythm for a moment and let the notes carry the space between golpes, which are the obvious musical accents. Then we return to familar ground with the remate.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=156803&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=siguiriyas%2Cmorao&tmode=&smode=&s=#158342
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2011 13:39:32
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.0625 secs.
|
Printable Version
