question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Full Version)

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Haithamflamenco -> question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 26 2011 20:23:08)

Hola gitanos,

I have this question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility??

I need a clear answer about it gitanos !!! when I start to play flamenco or any one we learn to play the Solea and Seguiriya in compass, all the newbies believe that,

but then I found that players play some flasetas or some part of the falseta in different compass and tembo,

lots of players told me that there is some flexibility, I know this flexibility will not exist in the baile , but I can clearly notice it in the cante and solo toque,

So, Ricardo or any one can clearfy this issue for me, lots of argument about it for long time,

ole

[>:]



duende -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 26 2011 20:35:21)

In solea and seguiriyas, you (the guitarrist) have to follow the singer
so that would also meen that you have to stretch a bit to make dramatic endings
climaxes and so on.

Listen to some realy old siguiriyas like Manuell Torre, Tomas Pavon etc
you will hears that the accompaniment is very stiff and "metronomical"

If you play solo its more important (imho) that the accents are in the phrasing
than in a stale beat tick tick booom tick tick boom tick booom tick booom tick boom

But i belive that if your a true beginner and are just starting out you should learn it in time on the beat tick tick boom etc[:D]

music needs drama, up´s and downs. to feel alive. To express something


/Henrik



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 26 2011 21:16:08)

thanks Henrik,

No I am not a beginner, I play since 1998,

but unfortunately no teacher available where I live,

I was in workshop with a flamenco player form Cuba, and I asked him about paco de lucia sole and vicente amigo solea and also moraito chico seguiriyas compass,

and he told me paco is the first who makes the solea a little bit flexible, the problem is I couldn't figure out exactly what he ment?!

its feel like the compass is stretching!! what I was trying to ask is:

is it the tempo changing or is it the compass on/off!!

I am asking this question just to clarify to my self and others about this point.



Ricardo -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 27 2011 0:31:01)

quote:

is it the tempo changing or is it the compass on/off!!

I am asking this question just to clarify to my self and others about this point.


I know it can be confusing when we emphasize so strong to work with a metronome to internalize compas. Point is, working with a metronome and learning rhythm, you hopefully are learning to understand subdivision of the beat. When you are really in control of it, you realize that tempo can change by the way you express the subdivisions of the beat. So for example a dancer will speed up the tempo with her feet either with a lot of notes per beat getting faster and faster, or sometimes with contra tiempo, so that the musicians follow by holding onto the perceived beat via the other notes around the beat. As opposed to just stomping the beat and going faster each time.

But for solo playing you learn you can do the same with a falseta or strum. Not so strong as a dancer can if you have to lead palmeros but it CAN be done. But with an unaccompanied solo you are free to push and pull as you want. In classical music it is called rubato, and again it is a taste issue. In flamenco, when we make the tempo stretch we may slow down a melodic part to emphasize, or hold a chord that moves out of the normal tonal range....then the remates or endings that return home may speed up for drama....or a more viruosic passage may be pushed up a notch or two speedwise for more intensity....etc. But it is a taste issue and quite a different thing than not being in control of subdivision, slowing down for hard parts, moving too fast in easy parts etc. In the end a player with really good compas can stretch phrases more convincingly then one that struggles keeping a steady tempo normally.

So we emphasize to students to keep working with metronome, with the understanding that freedom, true freedom will come with discipline and knowledge.



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 27 2011 15:33:07)

thanks Ricardo,

but if you allow me to ask further more, I will take an example of Moraito seguiriyas, if you try to count with him the beat of Seguiriya ait will not work! so is he at the begining playing an intro that is not into compass then he start the seguiriya? and or between the falsetas is making a gap ( one cycel) then he start the renate or the other falseta?





ok, and here is Oscar herrero playing:






Oscar is playing exaclty in compass , accents but with more spees tempo, I want to understand what Moraito is doing also lots of others in the Seguiriya, I would love Ricardo if take some parts more the video of moraito and explain exactly what is he doing!

thanks



lowden -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 27 2011 17:49:00)

Sabicas changes the compas in his Bronce gitano solea towards the middle of the song. I wondered if he just decided to work in 6 beats for a while because it sounded good!!? But who was going to argue with him right?
Interesting you ask this question I have been puzzled by it as well.



ToddK -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 27 2011 18:18:11)

So, the more famous and respected flamenco artist you are, the further
out of compas you are allowed to be.

Nice..[8D]



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 4:47:38)

quote:

So, the more famous and respected flamenco artist you are, the further
out of compas you are allowed to be.

Nice..


I hope this is not the case!![>:]



KMMI77 -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 5:34:23)

quote:

but if you allow me to ask further more, I will take an example of Moraito seguiriyas, if you try to count with him the beat of Seguiriya ait will not work! so is he at the begining playing an intro that is not into compass then he start the seguiriya? and or between the falsetas is making a gap ( one cycel) then he start the renate or the other falseta?


I would guess that on this occasion, Moraito is looking to make the music as expressive as he can, and sees the expression as more important than strict compas. Like ricardo said, "with an unaccompanied solo you are free to push and pull as you want"

But this is Moraito we are talking about. If you do the same and upload it to the foro you will get 100 replies telling you to work on your compas[:D][8D]



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 10:32:32)

quote:

But this is Moraito we are talking about. If you do the same and upload it to the foro you will get 100 replies telling you to work on your compas


and this is what happedn to me, arguing with my friends when I play moraito Seguiriya to them , that I am out of compass!!!

I do understand the theory about playing within or around compass,

I will ready Ricardo reply for 5 days, maybe I will get it!

Some time you think you know it all , then you find you know a little!![>:]



KMMI77 -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 11:25:20)

If your friend wants to accompany with rhythm then you both have to submit to a defined rhythm and tempo so you can play together. It's that simple. If you are playing solo, stretching the compas and don't want a defined rhythm, then your friend could just listen.

I have been listening to siguiriyas for over 30 years. The stretching of the compas has often been there. Of coarse there are some strict rhythmical versions as mentioned earlier, but often when accompanying the singer, the mood and tempo can fluctuate. I believe this has naturally spilt over into the solo playing from Moraito's era. The same can be said for Solea.

Now we have our modern recorded interpretations with percussion backing. Like Pepe Habichuelas siguiryas. Imho, approaching Siguiryas in this way is a relatively new concept. This modern driving rhythm style is a way of interpreting siguiriyas that has evolved in a new direction.

Prior to this modern style with pulsating rhythm, most earlier interpretations revolved around the cante. Maybe there are some, but most earlier solo guitar interpretations of siguiriyas(from Moraito's era) where not usually accompanied by palmas or percussion.

This is where the confusion starts. So i guess the question is. Do you want to play in the modern style accompanied by a driving rhythmical pulse? Or do you want to play in a style more like Moraitos exemplified version?

Understanding the compas and choosing to express a falseta in a way that upsets the flow of a rhythm, is different than simply playing out of compas. One is a choice and the other is forced due to not understand the rhythm, or being unable to follow it. If you understand the rhythm and choose to play in moraito's style and then others criticize your interpretation, then that's their decision.

Flamenco is a relatively new and evolving art form. Each generation takes what it likes best from the previous and builds upon it. Refining and better defining the concepts, rhythm and technique.

Anyway sorry to share my thoughts, I will let Ricardo answer.



Munin -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 11:41:56)

I don't think it is all that complicated really...even in the loosest, most syncopated solea/siguiriya that slows down and becomes faster, etc. I usually can still feel the pulse of the compas, mostly around the end and beginning of a cycle. It's like the compas is a compass (ha ha...) that shows you the rough direction of things and you can freely interpret inbetween.



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 28 2011 19:30:59)

quote:

Anyway sorry to share my thoughts, I will let Ricardo answer.


KMMI77, please don't say that, your thoughts are really helpful,

thank you for sharing your 30 years experience,

its getting more clear know,

I hope every one can list his thoughts
[>:]



Ricardo -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 29 2011 13:39:32)

quote:

thanks Ricardo,

but if you allow me to ask further more, I will take an example of Moraito seguiriyas, if you try to count with him the beat of Seguiriya ait will not work! so is he at the begining playing an intro that is not into compass then he start the seguiriya? and or between the falsetas is making a gap ( one cycel) then he start the renate or the other falseta?


The intro is totally free then he starts compas with the strumming llamada. Later he plays very loose, much in the style of his uncle Manuel Morao. Actually we talked about this subject much in the past, please review Romerito's topic
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=167134&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=carrion

Also I transcribed a typical Manuel Morao Falseta por siguiriyas, and there is simply no way the math can work with any concept of normal or odd subdivisions that it equals siguiriya compas...if you were to write it on paper. But oddly enough, if I play it with a loop, it crosses compas and gets back on for the ending. Perhaps it is on a different level, but the idea I think is to suspend your concept of driving rythm for a moment and let the notes carry the space between golpes, which are the obvious musical accents. Then we return to familar ground with the remate.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=156803&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=siguiriyas%2Cmorao&tmode=&smode=&s=#158342



Haithamflamenco -> RE: question about Solea and Seguiriya flexibility?? (Nov. 30 2011 5:22:26)

Ok, now it is more clear,

My conclusion is building up,

thanks Ricardo



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