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Please choose the 10 most important/common palos
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[Poll]
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Please choose the 10 most important/common palos
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| Alegrias |
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| Bulerias |
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| Fandangos |
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| Farruca |
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| Garrotin |
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| Granaina |
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| Guajiras |
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| Jaleos |
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| Malaguenas |
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| Minera |
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| Seguiriyas |
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| Sevillanas |
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| Solea |
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| Solea por Bulerias |
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| Tangos |
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| Tarantas |
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| Tarantos |
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| Tientos |
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| Zapateado |
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| Rondena |
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| Verdiales |
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| Colombianas |
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| Zambra |
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| Petenera |
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| Tanguillo |
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Total Votes : 426
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(last vote on : Dec. 26 2012 1:04:35)
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Please choose the 10 most import... (in reply to rombsix)
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Rumba, to get students moving the right hand and keeping rhythms while moving chords. You don't even have it on your list???
Then solea should be the door to all the rest of the forms, as you can learn compas, fasleta, technique etc....
But Ramzi, you want to TEACH all those palos? Are you really playing them yet? No offence man, but from my view you did not know really the basic phrasing of fandango until recently....are you sure you are up to doing exemplary versions of all the palos you want to teach?
Don't get me wrong, every one even beginners have a right to teach what they know, even not for free but to make money, but you don't want to show something like, lets say fandango, then have to go back to all your students and say "oh shoot wait a minute guys....it was not right before....it goes like THIS now...." etc....
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 17 2011 15:39:47
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rombsix
Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: Please choose the 10 most import... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Rumba, to get students moving the right hand and keeping rhythms while moving chords. You don't even have it on your list???
Then solea should be the door to all the rest of the forms, as you can learn compas, fasleta, technique etc....
But Ramzi, you want to TEACH all those palos? Are you really playing them yet? No offence man, but from my view you did not know really the basic phrasing of fandango until recently....are you sure you are up to doing exemplary versions of all the palos you want to teach?
Don't get me wrong, every one even beginners have a right to teach what they know, even not for free but to make money, but you don't want to show something like, lets say fandango, then have to go back to all your students and say "oh shoot wait a minute guys....it was not right before....it goes like THIS now...." etc....
Ricardo
Thanks for the input, Ricardo.
Concerning Rumba not being on my list, I guess you didn't read through this thread before commenting on that issue. This is why it is NOT on my list:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=2CFA955FC4ADFA05
Concerning me teaching those palos: you decided that I should NOT be teaching them based on that fandango idea I came up with. If you go back to that thread about the fandango idea, you will notice that all members who commented except you thought it was perfectly fine. Why is that so do you think?
I refer to you as an authority here because you are the only member here to my knowledge (Jason is no longer here) who has learned flamenco as carefully as possible and has probably spent the longest time doing professional full-time work in cante and baile accompaniment, as compared to all other members here. I am not saying other members suck, but I'm saying, at least out of what I have seen and read and been exposed to over the years on this forum, that you are probably the "highest in ranking" in terms of functional knowledge and experience of all aspects of flamenco - toque, baile, and cante.
Other members thought my fandango idea was fine (well, at least none of them mentioned that the structure of closing was not apt, as you kindly pointed out) because I believe most of them have learned flamenco by doing mostly solo guitar work, through learning falsetas by the maestros, who themselves make no such mistakes as mine regarding phrasing, structure, and composition. However, I assure you that if you were to spar with most members here who are GREAT technicians and even accompanists, you will find out that they mostly do things because they have been doing them that way for a long time. I mean, they don't actually have the deep understanding and they haven't spent as much time as you have analyzing everything about flamenco to figure out the details the way you do. I am sure there are many great members here in that regard, but I find you are at the top, if not the best (considering the practical, hands-on experience of toque, baile, and cante work that you've done).
This is why you are saying that I should NOT be teaching this material, because you consider that anything that gets taught NOT at the deep and superb level that YOU can teach at is considered SHAKY and probably will do students harm rather than good. At least that's my analysis of your mindset...
HOWEVER, if you were to know the situation of flamenco in the Arab world, you would realize that MOST people here still say flamInGo, and think Ottmar Liebert and the Gipsy Kings are the epitome of this art. Others have never even heard of the term altogether.
Therefore, the fact that I am doing this for free, and teaching ONLY THE BASICS (i.e. I will teach each palo using three videos - one of palmas and explaining the counting and accents, one of chording compas, and one of a simple falseta), using material that I have made 100% sure is correct and clear, is in my eyes only a GOOD thing. I will not publish any videos before I make sure the content has been verified by those with more knowledge than I have, or at least, I will only teach material so basic and derived from sources so foolproof that there will be NO room for error. And, even if errors are made, there will be always room to correct.
The way I see it, it is better to actually get this art out in the open in the Arab world, and get people to at least understand that it is NOT flamInGo or Gipsy Kings. I find doing ONLY the latter would be a great achievement. Also, I find it is a good thing to provide such free videos that are similar to teasers which will at least provide viewers with enough insight to actually pursue real studying of the art. I will then guide them to the online resources from which I am learning, and will suggest they go to Spain to study (because in the Arab world, there are no decent teachers to my humble knowledge). I will not even dare teach cante and/or baile accompaniment because I am a medical doctor as a profession, and I play flamenco guitar as a somewhat serious hobby. I have not had enough time with my studies and work to tackle much cante/baile accompaniment, which is NOT as easily learned as is solo guitar.
If, say, I were to go to a reliable source like Norman's website, or Jason's website, etc. and learn the basic counting of a palo I was not very solid on, then get a simple falseta from the maestros (which will be surely correct), then make a video explaining those things, I believe I would have achieved a great deal.
Flamenco is not pop, but then again, it is not metaphysical esoteric knowledge. As long as I don't claim to be teaching doctoral-level material in my humble videos, I see there will be no possible harm from making such tutorials. And, if the case were to arise that someone would point out errors in my videos, I would gladly rectify them, and seeing as to the introductory and teaser-like content of the videos, and the fact that the vast majority of people in my part of the world still believe in flamInGo, I would still consider this to be a positive thing.
I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the perspective I just presented.
Cheers!
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 17 2011 17:01:39
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Please choose the 10 most import... (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
Other members thought my fandango idea was fine (well, at least none of them mentioned that the structure of closing was not apt, as you kindly pointed out) because I believe most of them have learned flamenco by doing mostly solo guitar work, through learning falsetas by the maestros, who themselves make no such mistakes as mine regarding phrasing, structure, and composition.
I understand what you are saying, and I remember saying your idea worked, but it raised an eyebrow for me because you simply didn't end it in a way that feels "right". I would think others that praised your initial version either simple encouraged your idea could work as well (like I did), or they are simply not playing much fandangos themselves....solo or otherwise.
I guess you did not include your Rumba because you have so much of it already being demonstrated...but in THIS thread it would be good clarify that from the beginning as this topic will be viewed in future searches.
For me your initial post reads "ok I want to teach ALL the darn palos but which ones are more important"....and further you say you will keep it to a minimum....TEN????????????????? 
Ok, the fandango thing "raised an eyebrow" for me, and now again. My simple question is are you actually playing TEN flamenco palos at some competent level? Maybe you are, I don't really know. But if you are, then why are you asking what is more important? You should really KNOW that already.
Here's what I am getting at... You have a million rumbas which is great. You should approach next not TEN palos....how about ONE PALO. Or 2 maximum. I mean the scope you have for rumba is vast, yet each of the palos on your list above is EQUALLY VAST in scope. You felt compelled to show so many variations on rumba, but imagine you had only showed ONE pattern. Which one would it be? Would you feel it is enough to just show one then move on to siguiriya?
Anyway I hope you understand where I am going. It is great you are getting this info out there, but it just looks kind of strange from my view point.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 17 2011 19:46:40
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rombsix
Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: Please choose the 10 most import... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I would think others that praised your initial version either simple encouraged your idea could work as well (like I did), or they are simply not playing much fandangos themselves....solo or otherwise.
I believe that is the case...
quote:
I guess you did not include your Rumba because you have so much of it already being demonstrated...but in THIS thread it would be good clarify that from the beginning as this topic will be viewed in future searches.
In this thread, I presented a simple poll. I wasn't really asking for feedback in writing. All I wanted was to get votes. But still, I don't mind the replies.
quote:
For me your initial post reads "ok I want to teach ALL the darn palos but which ones are more important"....and further you say you will keep it to a minimum....TEN?????????????????
You're missing the point. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "teach." The aim of the flamenco "course" on DarsGuitar.net is to EXPOSE Arab guitar-enthusiasts to flamenco. The material has to be presented in ARABIC, so if you can find me videos of maestros who are explaining, in general, the basics of the more common palos, in Arabic, please let me know where they are, and I will make references to them.
I have already made about 15 videos introducing flamenco, talking about some issues related to flamenco guitar, and tackling the flamenco guitar techniques.
quote:
Ok, the fandango thing "raised an eyebrow" for me, and now again. My simple question is are you actually playing TEN flamenco palos at some competent level? Maybe you are, I don't really know. But if you are, then why are you asking what is more important? You should really KNOW that already.
Yes, I am playing ten flamenco palos at some competent level. The reason why I am asking is because I wanted to have documentation supporting why I chose to make videos about CERTAIN palos and not others. I am sure I will get feedback from users on the website who know something about flamenco who would say, "Why did you not make videos about THIS palo?" Then, I would tell them that I performed a survey on a popular flamenco forum with many users, and these are the palos that were considered to be most common/important. I could have simply NOT done this poll, and gone with the following: Alegrias, Bulerias, Fandangos, Farruca, Seguiriyas, Sevillanas, Solea, Solea por Bulerias, Tangos, Tientos (give or take a palo or two) as I know these are some of the most common palos. However, I wanted to have backing as to why I chose these particular ones.
quote:
Here's what I am getting at... You have a million rumbas which is great. You should approach next not TEN palos....how about ONE PALO. Or 2 maximum. I mean the scope you have for rumba is vast, yet each of the palos on your list above is EQUALLY VAST in scope. You felt compelled to show so many variations on rumba, but imagine you had only showed ONE pattern. Which one would it be? Would you feel it is enough to just show one then move on to siguiriya?
The reason why I have many rumba strumming patterns is because I received requests to make those videos. These strumming patterns are used to play Arabic pop songs, a musical genre that is very popular in the Arab world especially while playing chords on guitar and singing. Arabic pop nowadays mostly uses Western rhythms nearly identical to Gipsy Kings strumming patterns. Each of those strumming patterns (save one or two) have been used in very popular Arabic pop songs which I have been requested to make tutorials for. Because I wanted to stay within limits of "flamenco" on that website, I made these strumming pattern videos so they could be used by members and applied to Arabic pop songs.
I plan to make videos about at least 10 palos because the point of my work on that website is NOT to instruct members to become Paco de Lucias. Rather, my job there is to EXPOSE the members to the different forms of flamenco, in Arabic, so that they will know what that music is and what it sounds like. That is why I am not sticking to say solea, and going deep into it and showing many falsetas or even cante accompaniment, for example (which I can for this palo, somewhat, because I've worked on this more than others). When I've gotten members to know what the palos are about briefly, and what their basics sound like, I can then give private lessons about palos I feel most comfortable in (not fandangos  ), and I can direct them to resources like tabs of falsetas or accompaniment outlines. They will then be at least more interested and somewhat exposed to flamenco in general, and if they want to make the effort, they can learn English or Spanish and take lessons with Ricardo Marlow on Skype , or subscribe to Jason or Tanaka, or go to Cristina Heeren to study.
quote:
Anyway I hope you understand where I am going. It is great you are getting this info out there, but it just looks kind of strange from my view point.
I hope it looks LESS strange to you now.
Please give me anymore feedback you have. You already know how much I respect you for learning flamenco properly and investing the time to soak it all up in detail.
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Sep. 17 2011 21:25:09
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