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I posted this in the general section because I believe it is a question about music in general, which can still be applied to flamenco.
Y'all know that I do covers of Arabic pop songs. This is because unlike English pop songs, there are NO good websites on the internet that provide chords to the popular Arabic pop songs. Perhaps I should start one and make a fortune.
The method I use to come up with the chords to a song (or an instrumental piece, like say a rumba) is to listen to the bass guitar. It usually gives the roots of the chords, and I figure out minor and major by ear and logic (whatever "logic" means here). If there is no bass guitar, then piano, or strings, or other instruments give the chords away.
I've never tried to accompany cante yet, but seeing as there is no bass guitar I'm sure I'm going to have a harder time. Fortunately, cantes are structured somewhat and there are some traditional concepts and sets of chords to follow.
I have someone who is asking me to teach her HOW I pick up chords by ear. I find that hard to explain, because I was born with this ability (to pick out chords by listening to the instruments in a song / piece) and surely developed it with time. However, since day one when I held the guitar, I was much better than my friends were to come up with stuff by ear. Therefore, I have some degree of inborn ability. This friend of mine does NOT appear to have that inborn ability.
I made this video to try to explain how I do it.
She checked it out, but couldn't really understand what I was trying to explain. The internet is surely a barrier. Had she been in the same room as I was, I would have been able to point out the bass notes much better - alas, we are in different countries. This is something many people have asked me to explain though, and not just her.
Following are my questions:
1- How do YOU come up with the chords to songs? 2- Is there some software that can teach this, or some method? (I remember there was some software that could "listen" to the song and come up with the chords roughly) 3- Will ear training do the job? 4- Is there some way that deep (or not necessarily super deep) knowledge of music theory can allow one to do this? 5- How do you come up with the proper chords for cante? I am NOT looking for the answer "I play what sounds right to my ear." I am looking for HOW you determine that this sounds right.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
Some suggestions... Make sure she knows how to tune her guitar and that she has a properly intonated guitar (easier on electric). This is crucial. Next, theory is a big help. Knowing different intervals and what they sound like up and down the diatonic scale was a must for me. I would have been lost without it. After she learns triads and standard chord voicings for guitar make sure she knows them up and down the diatonic scale including chord choices for non-scalar notes. After this have her learn jazz chords/substitutions--i. e., chords stacked through two octaves. Finally--or at some point, she should learn the chord voicings for the particular type of music she intends to play. Many songs--even complex ones--use similar chord voicings, arps, embellishments, etc. After she learns enough of these paradigms she will be set.
A teenage friend of mine knew nothing about theory, chords, etc., but his uncle handed him a tuned, well-intonated electric guitar, showed him where to put his fingers and his talent took him from there. He had an excellent ear and could figure out complicated rock tunes fairly quickly. Some people have an excellent sense of harmony and are always right even though they have had no training in music theory.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
quote:
Next, theory is a big help. Knowing different intervals and what they sound like up and down the diatonic scale was a must for me. I would have been lost without it. After she learns triads and standard chord voicings for guitar make sure she knows them up and down the diatonic scale including chord choices for non-scalar notes. After this have her learn jazz chords/substitutions--i. e., chords stacked through two octaves. Finally--or at some point, she should learn the chord voicings for the particular type of music she intends to play.
I have no clue about what you just said. And I doubt she EVER will.
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
For ear training i have someone who plays random tones or chords or scales on piano or guitar, and i am to either just name them or emulate on guitar... it used to be hard... not as much now.
But ear training helps, so does theory.
So since i know the tone from ear training i can determine..
Also it is useful to find the root and go from there to build the full correct chord.
I guess if you dont have a good ear you just find it on the fretboard by trial and error, untill it is correct, this also helps build ear, especially if you dont watch the fretboard.
and sorry ive been quiet for so long, stuff happened, i am back!
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
This is really a tough issue for me.
I rarely seem to play the guitar these days, but back in time when I maybe heard a song I liked and wanted to sing/accompany myself I would ask my (then 15 year old - now in his 30s) son to tell me what the chords were. He'd fiddle around for a few minutes then come up with the goods. It used to drive me crazy and frustrate me no end that he could do this, and that I, with 4 years of classical training behind me at the time, couldn't.
If my son wasn't around, I'd home in on the melody, identify the important notes and play a corresponding chord that sounded a reasonable match. Probably similar to your approach with bass guitar. That chord would usually span a phrase or two of the song until it no longer fit and a new chord was obviously necessary - repeat the process. I never actually tried to reproduce exactly what I was hearing - there's no way I could have done that.
A VERY simple and primitive approach giving a pretty boring accompaniment, but it did enable me to sing along. I DID find I was starting to improve and was able to occasionally throw in the odd interesting chord or two.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
I believe that identifying a student as having an auditory, visual or kinesthetic learning style could be a good first step. Auditory learners will have a head start when it comes to this.
I have noticed that one of the guitarists i play with prefers auditory and kinesthetic learning styles. Explaining something to him visually requires him to convert the pictures into theory before he makes sense of the information. It makes sense that trying to get someone who prefers visual and kinesthetic learning to learn via listening would result in barriers.
I think it's great that these theories are now being utilized for the benefit of young people within the education system.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
Just watched your video - BRILLIANT. Edit Wow - and here's where your friend can identify loads of chords to try out once she's found the root. http://www.guitarchordgenerator.com/ I might just have to get the guitar out.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
Good video, Ramzi- I don't know how long you've been in music- I sense a good part of your life?? I started playing piano when I was 7 or 8... with my father trying to teach me. I learned scales, played for a couple of years, then started saxophone when I was in 5th grade. I got out of playing music when I graduated from high school, but then started playing guitar when I was 30 or so. When I began to start trying to figure out chords to songs, and how to play songs on the guitar, I felt I had that same instinctive ability once I began to "hear the chords". In most music, a simple song is based upon 3 chords, and once you figure out where the guitar is capo'd, and find the 1st chord or key, the other chords come easy. I think that our ability to pick out the chords is due to understanding scales, the concept of scales- what a scale sounds like in our head- due to many years of exposure to them. Also, different chords- say, a C- a D and a G chord have a different structural sound to them- so we hear those... We instinctively KNOW what a G chord sounds like, no matter where the guitar might be capo'd. Of course, as we capo up the neck, the chord name changes- but the "Structural Sound" of the chord remains the same. I think this is probably the basis of ear training. It's based on familarity with the sound of music- scales and chords. I don't think some people "have it" and some don't- I think some people have simply been exposed more to it- and have played it- and thus it is imbedded into our mind. Starting early is a huge asset in this process, as with so many other topics. Those who start on music, computers, etc. just seem to gain a leg up from starting learning in those early years that people just can't catch up on when they start later on in life. Which, I suppose, by my own definition, means I'm pretty much screwed for learning much more! Wes
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
I don't think I answered your question... but perhaps some background analysis of your question in these responses provided here might help you form your own answers?? Wes
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
When you guys figure out a good way let me know! I've been playing piano since i was 6 and guitars since my mid-late teens but I still have probably the worst here this side of a tone deaf person!
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix 5- How do you come up with the proper chords for cante? I am NOT looking for the answer "I play what sounds right to my ear." I am looking for HOW you determine that this sounds right.
Thats easy. Once you've found a new chord which is outside the traditional schemes, you save it and send a copy to cante@police.com. You will get a notification as soon as your version has been approved.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Thats easy. Once you've found a new chord which is outside the traditional schemes, you save it and send a copy to cante@police.com. You will get a notification as soon as your version has been approved.
cante@flamenco-police.com actually. They changed their address.
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
All you have to learn is how to "Hear a note, then play a note".
Thanks Todd. That's what I'm trying to teach people, but what most people are still having trouble grasping. Some people just CAN'T seem to hear that note. It might be due to them NOT being hard workers, but it might also be due to them not having the ability (the whole "tone deaf" issue).
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
quote:
All you have to learn is how to "Hear a note, then play a note".
Thanks Todd. That's what I'm trying to teach people, but what most people are still having trouble grasping. Some people just CAN'T seem to hear that note. It might be due to them NOT being hard workers, but it might also be due to them not having the ability (the whole "tone deaf" issue).
Those who cant, are there any good players, or dedicated students among them? Beginners often think there is a "trick". Hey Ramzi, how did you become a doctor btw? Was that also a trick?
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Those who cant, are there any good players, or dedicated students among them? Beginners often think there is a "trick". Hey Ramzi, how did you become a doctor btw? Was that also a trick?
Well, there actually are dedicated students and not-bad players. They seem like they really want to gain this ability, but they can't. I obviously am not a solfege teacher, and I haven't actually spent LONG times with students trying to get them to hear the bass notes for example in several songs. But I have showed some of them this trick very clearly, and they were ABLE to hear the notes in the song with my guidance. However, when they go to another song, it's like they are in a totally different situation and they can't seem to go back to being able to hear the bass notes. It's really frustrating.
About medicine - there was no trick. Just long hours of studying.
However, ever since day 1 when my friends and I picked up the guitar, and we had the same teacher, etc., I always had the ability to pick stuff up by ear, and they didn't. That's why I'm saying it's much inborn and not only learned.
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
Its a question of being more sensitive to something by birth i think, some people have better eyesight than the nor, or someone else has extraordinary sense of taste, or god smell...also, i think it is a simmilar thing.
Some people are born superior in some ways, those who arent have to rely on practice, and they have a talent too, that is will to practice to become really good, often they surpass the naturally talented because of dedication..
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Teaching someone how to pick up ... (in reply to rombsix)
I have experienced some people with a pretty good ear, picking out more the extensions of chords then what is really supposed to be played. For example, a lot of gipsy king songs use major7 and minor7 harmonies that I have seen people cover using minor chords instead of the maj7 (for example, a Bm in place of a Gmj7) and major chords in place of minor 7 chords (such as Fmajor instead of Dm7).
In these interesting cases, the harmonies work even though they are "wrong" because there are so many common notes. What becomes important for guitar players to pick out by ear is VOICING and fingering of chords, more then just the notes themselves, as we can play one note in several positions on the neck. Get used to hearing which STRING a note is played on and that will help deciphering chord progressions IMO.
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