difference between tientos & tangos

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rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

difference between tientos & tangos

Because I liked the Tientos extract in Granados book, I decided to learn the Tientos tabs. I've found a few tientos guitar-only pieces. I don't know how to differentiate tangos from tientos, is it a speed thing? what is it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 1:03:36

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

is it a speed thing?

YES!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 1:39:05

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

No - it's not a speed thing. They're different.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 2:03:34

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

Listen to the cante to see the difference. Tangos has a paddle and tientos has a peg leg.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 2:20:59

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to estebanana)

He's asking about the toque not the cante. Tientos is just a slow Tangos, It's still 4/4.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 2:54:59

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

quote:

He's asking about the toque not the cante. Tientos is just a slow Tangos, It's still 4/4.

There are really two kinds of Tientos toque. One is Tientos por Zambra, which is played faster. The slower Tientos is Tientos Clasicos. This is played slowly, frequently utilizing triplets, where the second note or stroke of the triplet is dotted, making the third note or stroke of the triplet shorter. So you get a compas with sort of a hesitation. I think that's what Estebanana meant by "tientos has a peg leg."

So Tangos can resemble Tientos por Zambra, but playing Tangos slowly does not make it Tientos. So it's not a tempo difference, it's really a compas difference.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 3:28:42

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

Tangos is faster and more lively than tientos and is more straightforward rhythmically.
according to paco pena's book

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 3:48:09

CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

playing Tangos slowly does not make it Tientos

But playing Tientos fast makes it Tangos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 4:00:40

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to CuerdasDulces)

the swing..is different...tangos resembles more rumba feel ( a slower version) accents the 2 more
tientos resembles more farruca in timing accents the 1..also tientos is a little slower then tangos...but if the excerpt you found and like hapens to be the tangos por tientos part then its the same...tientos ends in a tangos same way tarantos does...and there's no difference

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 7:38:37

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

Soleares, siguiriyas and tientos have slowed down quite a bit over the years. Originally it was hard to tell the difference between the tientos and tangos only based on the speed. You can listen to Manolo Caracol singing tientos often at the speed of a slow tango by todays standards.

Tango swings more, often leaving the 1 silent. It "gallops" on 2 and 3 more like a fandango. Tientos often accent the 1 and 1+ as well as +2 and 3 especially while leaving the 2 silent, giving it a different feeling, like a "stutter".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 8:09:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Tangos has a paddle and tientos has a peg leg.

Yeah, I'd agree with this.

The essence of Tientos (to me anyway) is that sort of "stumbling" or hesitancy".

(A bit like someone trying to speak when they are weeping)

Tangos, on the other hand, has no such hesitancy, the important part really being that "silent" beat which really defines the palo IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 8:24:44

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to Florian)

Thanks guys, like many flamenco things for my inexperienced ear, the difference is not obvious. I searched some more and found this and I think it includes all of what you mentioned, speed, triplets, feel or swing.

TIENTOS AND TANGOS
Tientos and tangos have their own tempos. Tientos can be defined as "extended" tangos, but have a slower tempo and a grander feel. Tientos triplets and melody make it a "cante grande" (a type of flamenco song) . You will see performances of the lively tango together with the Buleria, at any gypsy party. The two styles differ, not only in the rhythm, but also in the character of each dance. In tangos the dancer is the one who changes the beat, lapping her shoes for a faster rhythm which the group follows by clapping hands and shouting words of encouragement. These are both in a 4/4 beat.

This description also made me realize something, that it's the cante, baile and the guitar that define the palos. For tientos, once you take away the cante and baile, I feel that things start to get a little vague as to what palos it is and the line between the tangos and faster tientos is thin and you need to wait for a recognizable tientos characteristic to identify it.
It also made me realize that the introduction of solo guitar had a big impact to the palos and their limits.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 8:29:11

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

The essence of Tientos (to me anyway) is that sort of "stumbling" or hesitancy".

This I would recognize. But my confusion came from 2 of the Tientos I found which were not slow, I suppose they are the faster flavor, the Zambra that Promient Critic mentionned.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 8:32:45

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

In tangos the dancer is the one who changes the beat

In tientos this is also the case - for footwork the dancer often doubles the speed. Traditionally the singer is often the one who changes speed and turns the tientos to tangos.

Rogeliocan, try playing tangos falsetas for tientos or tientos falsetas for tangos. It's possible but you have to change some techniques around to make it fit rhythmically. This might help you understand the difference between the two.

Melodically there is absolutely no difference. The chord structures and melodies sung are exactly the same.

When in doubt, go to Youtube:

Letra are the exact same melody as "Triana, Triana..." This one is relatively slow, as it usually is, but check out 0:30, the dancer speeds things up, faster than many tangos. At 1:07 there's a break and it's slow again.

Here are some great old tientos letras. Here the guitarist often accents 1+ instead of 1 to listen for what's being sung. At 6:57 you can see how Carmen starts clapping to signal the speed change and switches to tangos.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 8:40:09

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Rogeliocan, try playing tangos falsetas for tientos or tientos falsetas for tangos. It's possible but you have to change some techniques around to make it fit rhythmically. This might help you understand the difference between the two.

Thanks for the videos, I have so much to learn. It's good to see the change in speed, it just goes and comes back.

The second video is tougher for me. I keep losing he beat at 7:12 where he accents 3 and 4, musically for me it feels I'm on 1 and it resets me to 1 because it feels like, so it feels like the beat is lost. But I need to ignore this and stay with the compas, without the palmas I would be lost. I will have to listen to that for a while to get used to it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 11:37:22

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

Yeah try to transcribe 7:06-7:12 and play it in a loop, then you'll feel it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 12:33:51

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 18:16:41

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to rogeliocan)

I mentioned listening to the cante because it tells lot about the character of the toque.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 20:14:55

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: difference between tientos & tangos (in reply to estebanana)

This all helped. I realized that for one of the pieces I was listening to, Tientos de el Mentidero, I was actually counting double the speed, turns out it's really slow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2011 21:41:01