difference between tientos & tangos (Full Version)

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rogeliocan -> difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 1:03:36)

Because I liked the Tientos extract in Granados book, I decided to learn the Tientos tabs. I've found a few tientos guitar-only pieces. I don't know how to differentiate tangos from tientos, is it a speed thing? what is it?



CuerdasDulces -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 1:39:05)

quote:

is it a speed thing?


YES! [:D]



Ramon Amira -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 2:03:34)

No - it's not a speed thing. They're different.



estebanana -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 2:20:59)

Listen to the cante to see the difference. Tangos has a paddle and tientos has a peg leg.

[:D]



CuerdasDulces -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 2:54:59)

He's asking about the toque not the cante. Tientos is just a slow Tangos, It's still 4/4.



Ramon Amira -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 3:28:42)

quote:

He's asking about the toque not the cante. Tientos is just a slow Tangos, It's still 4/4.


There are really two kinds of Tientos toque. One is Tientos por Zambra, which is played faster. The slower Tientos is Tientos Clasicos. This is played slowly, frequently utilizing triplets, where the second note or stroke of the triplet is dotted, making the third note or stroke of the triplet shorter. So you get a compas with sort of a hesitation. I think that's what Estebanana meant by "tientos has a peg leg."

So Tangos can resemble Tientos por Zambra, but playing Tangos slowly does not make it Tientos. So it's not a tempo difference, it's really a compas difference.

Ramon



Elie -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 3:48:09)

Tangos is faster and more lively than tientos and is more straightforward rhythmically.
according to paco pena's book



CuerdasDulces -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 4:00:40)

quote:

playing Tangos slowly does not make it Tientos


But playing Tientos fast makes it Tangos [;)]



Florian -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 7:38:37)

the swing..is different...tangos resembles more rumba feel ( a slower version) accents the 2 more
tientos resembles more farruca in timing accents the 1..also tientos is a little slower then tangos...but if the excerpt you found and like hapens to be the tangos por tientos part then its the same...tientos ends in a tangos same way tarantos does...and there's no difference



John O. -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 8:09:38)

Soleares, siguiriyas and tientos have slowed down quite a bit over the years. Originally it was hard to tell the difference between the tientos and tangos only based on the speed. You can listen to Manolo Caracol singing tientos often at the speed of a slow tango by todays standards.

Tango swings more, often leaving the 1 silent. It "gallops" on 2 and 3 more like a fandango. Tientos often accent the 1 and 1+ as well as +2 and 3 especially while leaving the 2 silent, giving it a different feeling, like a "stutter".



Ron.M -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 8:24:44)

quote:

Tangos has a paddle and tientos has a peg leg.



Yeah, I'd agree with this.

The essence of Tientos (to me anyway) is that sort of "stumbling" or hesitancy".

(A bit like someone trying to speak when they are weeping)

Tangos, on the other hand, has no such hesitancy, the important part really being that "silent" beat which really defines the palo IMO.

cheers,

Ron



rogeliocan -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 8:29:11)

Thanks guys, like many flamenco things for my inexperienced ear, the difference is not obvious. I searched some more and found this and I think it includes all of what you mentioned, speed, triplets, feel or swing.

TIENTOS AND TANGOS
Tientos and tangos have their own tempos. Tientos can be defined as "extended" tangos, but have a slower tempo and a grander feel. Tientos triplets and melody make it a "cante grande" (a type of flamenco song) . You will see performances of the lively tango together with the Buleria, at any gypsy party. The two styles differ, not only in the rhythm, but also in the character of each dance. In tangos the dancer is the one who changes the beat, lapping her shoes for a faster rhythm which the group follows by clapping hands and shouting words of encouragement. These are both in a 4/4 beat.

This description also made me realize something, that it's the cante, baile and the guitar that define the palos. For tientos, once you take away the cante and baile, I feel that things start to get a little vague as to what palos it is and the line between the tangos and faster tientos is thin and you need to wait for a recognizable tientos characteristic to identify it.
It also made me realize that the introduction of solo guitar had a big impact to the palos and their limits.



rogeliocan -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 8:32:45)

quote:


The essence of Tientos (to me anyway) is that sort of "stumbling" or hesitancy".


This I would recognize. But my confusion came from 2 of the Tientos I found which were not slow, I suppose they are the faster flavor, the Zambra that Promient Critic mentionned.



John O. -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 8:40:09)

quote:

In tangos the dancer is the one who changes the beat


In tientos this is also the case - for footwork the dancer often doubles the speed. Traditionally the singer is often the one who changes speed and turns the tientos to tangos.

Rogeliocan, try playing tangos falsetas for tientos or tientos falsetas for tangos. It's possible but you have to change some techniques around to make it fit rhythmically. This might help you understand the difference between the two.

Melodically there is absolutely no difference. The chord structures and melodies sung are exactly the same.

When in doubt, go to Youtube:


Letra are the exact same melody as "Triana, Triana..." This one is relatively slow, as it usually is, but check out 0:30, the dancer speeds things up, faster than many tangos. At 1:07 there's a break and it's slow again.



Here are some great old tientos letras. Here the guitarist often accents 1+ instead of 1 to listen for what's being sung. At 6:57 you can see how Carmen starts clapping to signal the speed change and switches to tangos.



rogeliocan -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 11:37:22)

quote:

Rogeliocan, try playing tangos falsetas for tientos or tientos falsetas for tangos. It's possible but you have to change some techniques around to make it fit rhythmically. This might help you understand the difference between the two.


Thanks for the videos, I have so much to learn. It's good to see the change in speed, it just goes and comes back.

The second video is tougher for me. I keep losing he beat at 7:12 where he accents 3 and 4, musically for me it feels I'm on 1 and it resets me to 1 because it feels like, so it feels like the beat is lost. But I need to ignore this and stay with the compas, without the palmas I would be lost. I will have to listen to that for a while to get used to it.



John O. -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 12:33:51)

Yeah try to transcribe 7:06-7:12 and play it in a loop, then you'll feel it.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 14 2011 18:16:41)

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estebanana -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 20:14:55)

I mentioned listening to the cante because it tells lot about the character of the toque.



rogeliocan -> RE: difference between tientos & tangos (Apr. 14 2011 21:41:01)

This all helped. I realized that for one of the pieces I was listening to, Tientos de el Mentidero, I was actually counting double the speed, turns out it's really slow.



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