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easier to play with capo?   You are logged in as Guest
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Pablito

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Sep. 27 2009
From: Long Island NY

easier to play with capo? 
Hey guys. I've noticed it's a lot easier to play anything if I use a capo. Anyone else feel this way? I think it's because the tension is tighter which leads me to think I should get high tension strings. But how can I know if that'll effect the neck negatively? I play a cheap yamaha. I find the intonation to be a bit better if a capo's on too. is that just in my head or is it possible that the problem is in the nut? It's fun to talk to people who actually care! You guys rule

Paul
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2010 17:49:55
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
quote:

it's a lot easier to play anything if I use a capo.

there are two reasons:
1- the frets get smaller from the top of the neck till the bottom therefore your fingers will fill the frets better when using the capo (due to smaller frets) and you will feel that playing is easier .
2- the strings will be tighter ( as u said ) like the high tension they will not bend easily, so if you have strong fingers you will feel that its easier.

why do you think that it will effect the neck negatively ?
I've used a cheap capo (dadi's products) on a cheap yamaha too ( cm-40 ) with lowered bridge almost every day and I've never faced any problems or negative affects on the neck . so I think no it will not affect the neck at all unless your capo is not good .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2010 23:03:33
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Only negative effect on the neck should be if it's a poor design or improperly used and damages the finish.

And possibly detunes the strings.

AFAIK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2010 23:29:12
 
sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Yeah man, my capo's been stuck on the second fret for many months now. It's funny when you take it off after so long. The guitar feels and sounds different. It's quite unnerving at first then you start enjoying the guitar without the capo. You get this nice slack feeling from the strings.

Effectively, you're changing the scale length.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 0:00:23
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Yes, I find it easier and sounds more flamenco (less sustain, I guess) but it's not recommended for practising all the time. Your muscle memory will under reach when you go back to open strings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 0:01:05
 
Stu

Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Escribano) 
quote:

my capo's been stuck on the second fret for many months now


do you mean you literally haven't taken it off for about two months? or you just always play capo two?

Im just curious as I always feel the need to remove my capo at night when i put the guitar away....but is that necessary??
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 0:33:41
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Stu) 
i used to practice with capo in 2nd position all the time...but when you start to play for dance and cante, you'll be forced to other positions...
by this i had problems finding frets with other capo positions and when playing without a capo sometimes i still do...and i hate it! but it's necessary to practice with all kinds of positions, it's better for you in the long run i think...
btw i also think playing with capo on results in a better flamenco tone in some palos, but for example a rondena is best without one...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 3:44:49
 
Pablito

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Sep. 27 2009
From: Long Island NY

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Thanks for all your reply's guys. I meant if I use high tension strings will that throw the neck off. The action feels a tad high as it is, so might the tighter tension pull the headstock forward a little creating more of a concave? (I don't know technical terms....obviously) I definitely like the feel of tighter strings having played an aggressive style of electric bass most of my life.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 5:57:45
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
quote:

I've noticed it's a lot easier to play anything if I use a capo. Anyone else feel this way? I think it's because the tension is tighter which leads me to think I should get high tension strings.


“if I can sing it I can feel it” this my rule of thumb when composing or interpreting. I shift the capo so to be in what serves as the most singing-friendly key. However, later –when I reach a degree of confidence in my interpretation- I play the same piece without capo and in a variety of different positions seeking the key which allows the guitar to sing that piece best.

The capo narrows the frets, shortens the scale and increases tension all of which will facilitate playing. It will –to put it with Ricardo (answering the same question I had posed to him some time ago) “tighten those basses”, also a useful consequence. Todd reminded me that one would scarcely see Gerardo Nunez’s guitar sporting a capo, and I still do not understand how he achieves such beautifully “tight” tone without it. I struggle with the same question when I see a capo on the 5th fret for cante accompaniment, and yet the tone remains rich –not as mandolin-like as I would expect.

Recently, I noticed how Vicente Amigo plays/appears capo-less. In the past, he had a capo consistently on the first fret.

As a general and generic observation it would seem that the left hand position shifts accordingly, the higher the capo (4th or 5th fret) the closer to the sound-hole, and vice-versa, closer to the bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 6:07:34
 
sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
quote:

do you mean you literally haven't taken it off for about two months? or you just always play capo two?


Both. I'm learning some tunes the have capo 2 but the other tunes I'm playing sound good in that key so I have just left the capo there until recently.

I did wonder about adverse affects of leaving it there but all seems fine. I'm sure the strings wear faster as a result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 8:25:26
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to sean65) 
Well, me too.

I absolutely HATE the sound of Flamenco guitar played sin cejilla, unless it's some of the experts at it like Gerardo or Paco etc...

Myself, I love the sound of the guitar with capo minimum 2 better 4 or higher!

Playing off the nut is for Classical guys and folk who study text books IMO.

Not for me!

I need that "tense" sound!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 10:17:34
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Ron.M) 
I agree. I enjoy the different feel and sound with capo in different places but at home I usually practice with no capo. It is only a little harder to control and get a good tone but there is a bigger and deeper sound with no capo.
I have a Conde and a Hermanos Sanchis, which are tight, even guitars with stiff pulsation maybe this makes them suited to open strings?

Also having no capo makes playing higher parts easier, a capo at four then means going up into fret 14,15,16 and beyond which has it's own challenges.

The other thing that makes me use the capo is to save the fourth string from being eaten by the second fret.

Of course for singers they dictate the capo. With dancers I use the capo for a change of tone so it doesn't get boring.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 10:32:16
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:


Of course for singers they dictate the capo.


Of course, you can always say..

"Sorry, that's the capo fret I always play that Palo in...if your voice isn't trained enough to cope with it.....well, I guess you need to practise some more..."

cheers,

Ron ( GLF...Guitarist's Liberation Front)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 12:12:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Stuff down low on the neck is easier cuz it is like having a smaller scale. But stuff up high on the neck gets harder and harder the higher the capo position. Right hand I don't feel is affected so much unless your guitar is set up very high action. The capo will lower the action. Intonation same deal, you will notice tuning issues if you have a higher action then lower.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 13:31:36
 
Pablito

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Sep. 27 2009
From: Long Island NY

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
okay. The action is not terrible but it's a little bit too high. I'm practicing without the capo as much as I can but I find I'm always "splitting the difference" with the tuning. The 3rd string is by far the worst.
In this video I didn't split the difference




Sorry for my terrrible mic!
I basically can't play a lot of stuff without capo unless I split the difference. I have a good ear so it's torture.

BTW Ricardo your solea por buleria on youtube is still my fav
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 14:04:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Your 3rd string is flat. I could hear right off g# is too sweet in that E chord. It is just the way equal temp tuning works. dont tune to chords or any thing with fingers on the neck. Unless you are going to play modal music.(drone or vamp). tune open strings only. learn to make up for the coma with playing technique. strings go out over time and are bad sometimes too. use harmonics to tune if you dont have a tuner.

5th and 4ths can be sweet sounding, but not octaves and never 3rds.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 14:19:47
 
Pablito

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Sep. 27 2009
From: Long Island NY

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Ricardo) 
THanks Ricardo. What I meant by split the difference is usually the 3rd string sounds a little sharp in the E chord and a little flat in the C. I understand that your left hand will determine the sound like if you're bending our pushing too hard etc. and that I can use that knowledge to make it sound right. So you're saying that this happens even with high end guitars? I didn't know that.

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Pablito Rovira
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 14:28:39

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
quote:

So you're saying that this happens even with high end guitars?


i think maybe you arent sure what equal temperament is.

It does not matter how great the guitar is, or how great your intonation is.

Equal Temperament is a musical tuning system that divides the Octave into 12 geometrically equal steps.
Each step is one semitone. When moving up one step, the frequency (or pitch) increases by 2^(1/12). Using this system, the Octave (12 semitones) is perfect, because 2^(12/12) = 2^1 = 2, an exact doubling of frequency. But the Fifth (seven semitones) is 2^(7/12) = 1.498 times the root. A perfect fifth, on the other hand is exactly 1.5 times. The difference is small, but it is significant. If you want to hear this, play the 6th string 7th fret harmonic. Now stop the string at the 7th fret and play the assisted harmonic at the 19th fret (effectively the new 12th fret). This note will sound very slightly flatter than the 7th fret harmonic. In Equal Temperament tuning, the slightly flat note is the correct pitch.

A common reaction is that Equal Temperament must be 'wrong'. Surely it's better to use perfect intervals instead?
•The theoretical problem with this is that you are then restricted to very simple music that remains mostly in one key. If you progress through the 'cycle of fifths' (C, G, D, A, etc) by perfect intervals, when you finally get back to C (after 12 steps) you'll find that it's a very different C from the one you started on! However, by slightly flattening each fifth, after 12 steps you'll arrive back exactly where you started. Thus Equal Temperament slightly compromises every interval (except unison and octave) so that all keys are equally acceptable. This brilliant invention is what made Western music so harmonically rich and varied.
•The practical problem, for a guitarist, is that your instrument has a fretboard layout mathematically designed for Equal Temperament. Unless your open strings are correctly tuned, all your 'cross-string' intervals become arbitrary

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 16:09:00
 
Pablito

 

Posts: 56
Joined: Sep. 27 2009
From: Long Island NY

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to ToddK) 
You're absolutely right Todd, I don't know what equal temperament is. I'm very uneducated. I have a great ear, sense of rhythm etc but I've yet to learn how to bring it all out on the guitar. I'm sure hanging around you guys will help! I'm gonna start doing some research on this subject..after all, the internet is right in front of my face

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Pablito Rovira
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2010 16:18:22
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to ToddK) 
and this is why i always tune to the base chord i'm playing, when playing por arriba, i try to make sure my E, G, C sound right, when por medio, the A has the priority...it's annoying that nothing sounds good when i simply tune the open strings...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 1:58:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
dont know if this is different for every guitar, but when i only use open strings and harmonics, i get problems with the b string. When i do an A chord, the c# on the b string contradicts to the open A string. So i try to find a balance between the b being as a fifth to the bass E string which is sharper than the major third of A chord, or A string.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 2:42:35

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

and this is why i always tune to the base chord i'm playing,


You can tune to a chord, but it only makes that one single chord sound in tune. Everything else will be "Off". Unless as Ricardo said, you're playing modal stuff with a one chord drone.

Otherwise, I would say tuning open strings is the best policy. Especially if you're going to play with other guitarists or instrumentalists.

People get really fixated on the major 3rds sounding a hair sharp on the G and B strings. I can understand that.
Its an "evil" but i feel its the "lesser of the 2". I would rather have all chords be "just about there" rather than having one chord perfect, and a few things be REALLY SOUR.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 3:13:06

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

dont know if this is different for every guitar, but when i only use open strings and harmonics, i get problems with the b string. When i do an A chord, the c# on the b string contradicts to the open A string. So i try to find a balance between the b being as a fifth to the bass E string which is sharper than the major third of A chord, or A string.


This is very very common on many guitars. 1st and 2nd fret are notoriously sharp because they so close to the nut.

You could try a very slight nut compensation, but its always a compromise. It may fix that particular issue at the second fret B string, but it will cause a slight issue somewhere else no doubt.

Anybody here familiar with the Buzz Feiten system? Question is, is it possible for nylon strings?

Here's a link to how it supposedly works http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 3:19:03
 
Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to ToddK) 
I once had an electric with terrible intonation. This product fixed it for me. I think it is the same idea Todd mentions in the Buzz Feiton system.
http://www.earvana.com/products.htm
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 5:44:32
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: easier to play with capo? (in reply to Pablito) 
Instead of using the type of compensated nut systems out there that shorten scale length to improve intonation—like the Feiten system—other systems use different tuning procedures. Stroboflip is a good example. It’s expensive but there is a software version, too. I’ve read on another site that people simply used the procedure without buying the device and were happy with the results.

BTW: Feiten does claim his system works on classical/nylon string guitars. The statement is somewhere on the site.

Here’s a link:
www.petersontuners.com/index.cfm?category=37
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2010 6:42:50
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