Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
My young student Roberto
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
rombsix
Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
|
 RE: My young student Roberto (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
|
|
|
Hola Maestro McGuire! 
Allow me to comment about the following:
“About the wrong note........... ummmm, I think you are mistaken. Vicente does phrase it a hair differently, but we certainly are NOT trying to create a clone. Even Vicente plays this differently live. "Grossly out" is a very strong way to say you think a note is wrong. Perhaps it may be the language barrier, but if it makes you happier I will have him play whichever note you think it should be. Roberto is very flexible and so am I. Perhaps he should take out the extra falseta he improvised in the middle too. He tries to be creative and I don't have the heart to tell him that changing a note or adding a falseta might be offensive to die-hard Vicente fans..... Hope you understand that I am just kidding with a bit Rombsix. I hope you don't take it the wrond way.
The notes are accurate enough in my opinion. Canizares didn't mention it in the Master Class he took with him where he performed it. If its good enough for Canizares its good enough for me.”
When I play something, I prefer to make it sound note-for-note like the original. But that’s just me, and I cannot say you are mistaken, nor can you say I am mistaken, because this is a matter of opinion. Still, let us discuss.
Personally, I find that the verb “to interpret” a piece is often used as an excuse to cover up the fact that one CANNOT actually play a certain piece 100% note-for-note, and thus one would say this is an “interpretation,” and not meant to be a clone of the original. If someone were to really “interpret” a piece, I would say that this person would actually ADD to / change the piece clearly, and in a way whereby it would seem obvious that this person has modified the piece while sticking to its general theme. However, when someone plays a piece up to about 90% or more identically to the original, and has a bit of it here and there that is NOT identical to the original, then I would say that said person is simply trying to justify the fact that he CANNOT play it completely like the original (which seems to be the original intent here) by saying that he is an interpreter. Vale?
The falseta that Roberto added to the piece is my definition of “INTERPRETING” a piece, whereby one plays parts of it fully like the original, and maybe adds falsetas or removes ones (and this definition applies to flamenco most appropriately – it is a bit shaky if applied to say classical guitar music, and I can explain why if you like). However, the part from 1:41 to 1:47 is what I call “messing a part of the original tune up” rather than interpreting.
Saying that Vicente plays it differently live every time does not really fit into this discussion, I would say. I am considering that the ORIGINAL piece is being tackled here.
Now about the use of the words “grossly off:” You say that is a very strong way to express that a note is wrong? I beg to differ. Let us look up the word “gross” in Webster’s online dictionary:
1 aarchaic : immediately obvious b (1): glaringly noticeable usually because of inexcusable badness or objectionableness <a gross error> (2): out-and-out, utter <a gross injustice> c: visible without the aid of a microscope
2 a: big, bulky ; especially : excessively fat b: growing or spreading with excessive luxuriance
3 a: of, relating to, or dealing with general aspects or broad distinctions b: consisting of an overall total exclusive of deductions <gross income> — compare net
4: made up of material or perceptible elements
5archaic : not fastidious in taste : undiscriminating
6 a: coarse in nature or behavior : unrefined b: gravely deficient in civility or decency : crudely vulgar <merely gross, a scatological rather than a pornographic impropriety — Aldous Huxley> c: inspiring disgust or distaste <that sandwich looks gross>
7: deficient in knowledge : ignorant, untutored
My use of the word revolved around the definitions above: “immediately obvious, glaringly noticeable, coarse in nature.” These definitions, I find, describe – exactly – the way I perceived Roberto’s playing from 1:41 to 1:47. I believe you found my usage to be “very strong” because I believe you thought of the definition: “inspiring disgust or distaste.”
So I would rule out the possibility of a language barrier being present. Humbly, I speak / write English better than many Americans / Brits.
About what Roberto played: the note that bothered me the most was a G# that Roberto played (in the sequence: D, G#, F, E with a capo on the 2nd fret). You say you are both very flexible and want to make me happy? Then suggest to Roberto that he review the original piece from 1:18 to 1:23, and play it note-for-note. Or maybe refer to the images at the end of this post.
And let him KEEP his falseta in the middle. It’s GREAT! Instead, have him maybe take out the part I am discussing, and maybe replace it with another of his cool falsetas. That would be a great way to interpret this piece, I would say.
I am NOT a die-hard Vicente fan, and I encourage Roberto to be as creative as possible. In the end, the ultimate goal is to become a composer and play your own material. That is why PdL is very famous, while Grisha (who might have better technique etc.) is not as famous.
And about Canizares: just because it is Canizares, it does NOT mean he is flawless. I am NOT saying I am either, but I’m just saying what I’ve been trying to portray all throughout my message above.
And finally: I FULLY understand that you meant no harm whatsoever in your above post. I respect you completely as a great flamenco guitarist, and whole musician, and your opinion is NEVER taken lightly. I just felt that I wanted you and people to know how I think about such matters. It might be a flaw in the way I function, but that is just how my personality is.
Gracias maestro! Y ole Roberto!
PS: And one last thing: What about those "moans" that you produce when you are performing music (even on cajon, and not just guitar)? Examples evident at 1:51, 3:44, 4:18 etc.
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2009 10:24:10
 |
|
rombsix
Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
|
|
RE: My young student Roberto (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
|
|
|
Maestro Jason!
I know I should loosen up. I've always been told that, and I guess that is just part of who I am. Might have something to do with all the stress I have to handle day-in-day-out at the hospital with patients and their problems, etc. Might also have to do with the fact that I am a bit of a perfectionist... You're right. Life IS too short!
Who said anything about compas? Obviously, that is the most important thing when it comes to flamenco.
About what I was playing on guitar when I was 10: NOTHING! I only started playing at age 16, and that is something I regret now. But that's that. I never claimed it was something that had to do with Roberto solely. Had it been ToddK or Ricardo or Ron or any other guitarist playing that tune the way Roberto was playing it (that specific part I mentioned), I would have made the same comments. On the contrary, I applaud Roberto tremendously and that is made clear by the fact that I created a thread just a while back with a link to his videos from the Montalvo website.
You are absolutely right about warmth when it comes to ANY type of music. That is something I might lack in. I've received many comments about being too cold a performer, and not FEELING music much. Still, one can be quite warm while playing something as close to the original as possible (and thus making me feel much better  ).
And about that Canizares tune: I think I TOO will skip this one for now considering that I am TOO busy preparing for three concerts, and six year-long final exams while working shifts and being on-call for the coming two months. I'll still try to have a go at your bulerias challenge, however.
Adios!
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 16 2009 12:44:18
|
|
Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
|
|
RE: My young student Roberto (in reply to rombsix)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
And about what version of any tune you are to learn: The ORIGINAL! That means, you look for the FIRST creation/rendition of this piece, and learn it. In Tres Notas' case, that means the one from the CD - Ciudad de las Ideas!
The beautiful thing about Flamenco for me, is that my "pieces" are in a constant state of evolution. I'm constantly replacing poorer falsetas with better ones, rearranging, extending, and modifying falsetas when I have new ideas. Usually about 1 month after I record something, I no longer feel that it adequately represents my playing. Even Paco de Lucia said that if it was possible, he would have not recorded any albums, just saved everything up and done one incredible album at the end of his career. He heard someone playing his Alegrias in their car and thought that it was ****, because he could record it better now, or write a better one.
The point is that the version of a piece that appears on an artist's album may not be the version that the artist is most proud of anymore. Obviously if they are playing it differently live, then they wanted to change something. Just a thought.
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2009 7:23:28
|
|
rombsix
Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
|
|
RE: My young student Roberto (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
|
|
|
deteresa1: Point well-taken. Touche!
Dave: True, but what if you think about each falseta? I don't mind someone switching around falsetas or their order, adding or removing falsetas from a "piece," but what I DON'T like is for someone to play a whole falseta similar to the original, while making mistakes or slight changes and claiming that that is "their version." I don't mind if you play a falseta and replace part of that falseta with your own bit (maybe because the original had a picado run that was too fast), but just don't try to make your falseta sound similar to the original, but not fully because you are messing it up. You know what I mean?
If you play something from the original, make it sound FULLY like the original, or else, just don't play it (because I assume that the way you are playing it is turning out to be different from the original simply because it is either too hard for you, or that you stink at playing but just want to play something and say it is your rendition to cover up the fact that you're not so great a player).
Do you agree? (and I was addressing the above as "you" when obviously I wasn't referring to you personally)
Ay! Karamba! 
_____________________________
Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 17 2009 8:48:53
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.1015625 secs.
|
Printable Version
Hope you understand that I am just kidding with a bit Rombsix. I hope you don't take it the wrond way. 
