My young student Roberto (Full Version)

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JasonMcGuire -> My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 13:26:37)

Here is a video I thought I would share of my lesson this morning with Roberto. His compas is getting sharper. Still a little ways to go though....


http://www.flamenco-lessons.com/RobertoGitanoLucia4.15.09.mov




Mark2 -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 16:08:35)

I was driving to work a couple saturdays ago and heard him playing live on the radio on KGO- kid's gonna be a monster if he stays with it.




at_leo_87 -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 17:02:18)

damn... thats just amazing. i really want to see what he'll play like in 5 years.

p.s. the cajon kind of drowned him out a little [:D]




cathulu -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 17:51:16)

Cool stuff! Thanks for sharing that. Makes me want to go practice... maybe later... [:D]




ToddK -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 19:51:55)

couldnt hear the guitar[:@]




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 19:55:06)

EXCELLENT!

Comments:

1- Please let him grow out his nails

2- Notes-wise, the tune is fine. But PLEASE! There's a note that he's playing incorrectly at 1:43 and again at 1:46 which I noticed he played wrong as well in previous recordings of this tune. It is grossly off in my opinion, and would make the recording much more pleasant to the ear if it were to be corrected. If you didn't realize which note, I'll check out what pitch it was exactly and let you know (don't have my guitar at the moment).

Other than that, and taking everything into consideration: OLE! [:)]




JasonMcGuire -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 15 2009 20:55:46)

Sorry Todd about the cajon. We are working hard on his ability to play with other musicians. His rhythmic skills have been our biggest challenge and he has been working extremely hard to overcome those issues. I will record it again next week when he comes for his lesson again and I will spend a little more time on the mix. It was the end of his lesson and we didn't have much time. We spent the majority of his lesson learning some solea stuff.

About his nails Romb... he bites them. Its not a matter of letting him grow the nails. He bites them. I tell him every week, but he IS only 10. He will grow out of biting his nails for sure. He has plenty of time to learn and there really is no need to rush.

About the wrong note........... ummmm, I think you are mistaken. Vicente does phrase it a hair differently, but we certainly are NOT trying to create a clone. Even Vicente plays this differently live. "Grossly out" is a very strong way to say you think a note is wrong. Perhaps it may be the language barrier, but if it makes you happier I will have him play whichever note you think it should be. Roberto is very flexible and so am I. Perhaps he should take out the extra falseta he improvised in the middle too. He tries to be creative and I don't have the heart to tell him that changing a note or adding a falseta might be offensive to die-hard Vicente fans..... [;)] Hope you understand that I am just kidding with a bit Rombsix. I hope you don't take it the wrond way. [:D]

The notes are accurate enough in my opinion. Canizares didn't mention it in the Master Class he took with him where he performed it. If its good enough for Canizares its good enough for me.




Gummy -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 6:41:48)

It looks to me that his brain is like a sponge. I am impressed at how fast he seems to learn. This song, solea stuff and the challenge falsetta in a short time. It took me a full week to learn the notes of the challenge falsetta. I still can barely play it(but I'm slow). It's funny how inspired I get watching others learn and progress. Thanks for the post and video.
Rod




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 10:24:10)

Hola Maestro McGuire! [:)]

Allow me to comment about the following:

“About the wrong note........... ummmm, I think you are mistaken. Vicente does phrase it a hair differently, but we certainly are NOT trying to create a clone. Even Vicente plays this differently live. "Grossly out" is a very strong way to say you think a note is wrong. Perhaps it may be the language barrier, but if it makes you happier I will have him play whichever note you think it should be. Roberto is very flexible and so am I. Perhaps he should take out the extra falseta he improvised in the middle too. He tries to be creative and I don't have the heart to tell him that changing a note or adding a falseta might be offensive to die-hard Vicente fans..... Hope you understand that I am just kidding with a bit Rombsix. I hope you don't take it the wrond way.

The notes are accurate enough in my opinion. Canizares didn't mention it in the Master Class he took with him where he performed it. If its good enough for Canizares its good enough for me.”

When I play something, I prefer to make it sound note-for-note like the original. But that’s just me, and I cannot say you are mistaken, nor can you say I am mistaken, because this is a matter of opinion. Still, let us discuss.

Personally, I find that the verb “to interpret” a piece is often used as an excuse to cover up the fact that one CANNOT actually play a certain piece 100% note-for-note, and thus one would say this is an “interpretation,” and not meant to be a clone of the original. If someone were to really “interpret” a piece, I would say that this person would actually ADD to / change the piece clearly, and in a way whereby it would seem obvious that this person has modified the piece while sticking to its general theme. However, when someone plays a piece up to about 90% or more identically to the original, and has a bit of it here and there that is NOT identical to the original, then I would say that said person is simply trying to justify the fact that he CANNOT play it completely like the original (which seems to be the original intent here) by saying that he is an interpreter. Vale? [:)]

The falseta that Roberto added to the piece is my definition of “INTERPRETING” a piece, whereby one plays parts of it fully like the original, and maybe adds falsetas or removes ones (and this definition applies to flamenco most appropriately – it is a bit shaky if applied to say classical guitar music, and I can explain why if you like). However, the part from 1:41 to 1:47 is what I call “messing a part of the original tune up” rather than interpreting. [:)]

Saying that Vicente plays it differently live every time does not really fit into this discussion, I would say. I am considering that the ORIGINAL piece is being tackled here.

Now about the use of the words “grossly off:” You say that is a very strong way to express that a note is wrong? I beg to differ. Let us look up the word “gross” in Webster’s online dictionary:

1 aarchaic : immediately obvious b (1): glaringly noticeable usually because of inexcusable badness or objectionableness <a gross error> (2): out-and-out, utter <a gross injustice> c: visible without the aid of a microscope
2 a: big, bulky ; especially : excessively fat b: growing or spreading with excessive luxuriance
3 a: of, relating to, or dealing with general aspects or broad distinctions b: consisting of an overall total exclusive of deductions <gross income> — compare net
4: made up of material or perceptible elements
5archaic : not fastidious in taste : undiscriminating
6 a: coarse in nature or behavior : unrefined b: gravely deficient in civility or decency : crudely vulgar <merely gross, a scatological rather than a pornographic impropriety — Aldous Huxley> c: inspiring disgust or distaste <that sandwich looks gross>
7: deficient in knowledge : ignorant, untutored

My use of the word revolved around the definitions above: “immediately obvious, glaringly noticeable, coarse in nature.” These definitions, I find, describe – exactly – the way I perceived Roberto’s playing from 1:41 to 1:47. I believe you found my usage to be “very strong” because I believe you thought of the definition: “inspiring disgust or distaste.”

So I would rule out the possibility of a language barrier being present. Humbly, I speak / write English better than many Americans / Brits. [:)]

About what Roberto played: the note that bothered me the most was a G# that Roberto played (in the sequence: D, G#, F, E with a capo on the 2nd fret). You say you are both very flexible and want to make me happy? Then suggest to Roberto that he review the original piece from 1:18 to 1:23, and play it note-for-note. Or maybe refer to the images at the end of this post.

And let him KEEP his falseta in the middle. It’s GREAT! Instead, have him maybe take out the part I am discussing, and maybe replace it with another of his cool falsetas. That would be a great way to interpret this piece, I would say.

I am NOT a die-hard Vicente fan, and I encourage Roberto to be as creative as possible. In the end, the ultimate goal is to become a composer and play your own material. That is why PdL is very famous, while Grisha (who might have better technique etc.) is not as famous.

And about Canizares: just because it is Canizares, it does NOT mean he is flawless. I am NOT saying I am either, but I’m just saying what I’ve been trying to portray all throughout my message above.

And finally: I FULLY understand that you meant no harm whatsoever in your above post. I respect you completely as a great flamenco guitarist, and whole musician, and your opinion is NEVER taken lightly. I just felt that I wanted you and people to know how I think about such matters. It might be a flaw in the way I function, but that is just how my personality is.

Gracias maestro! Y ole Roberto!

PS: And one last thing: What about those "moans" that you produce when you are performing music (even on cajon, and not just guitar)? Examples evident at 1:51, 3:44, 4:18 etc. [:)]




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 10:26:04)

Other image.




JasonMcGuire -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 11:16:21)

well Romb, I guess you told me..... You should however in my opinion loosen up a bit. Its just flamenco.

About interpreation being a "cop-out", Most of the Note-forNote interpretations out there are to use your term "grossly" out of compas. In my teaching compas is king.

About my groaning. I find it very amusing myself. It is completely involuntary and is a component of how I process rhythm. To me rhythm is physical. It moves the body and all things around in a profound way. I recently found some raw recordings of drum tracks by the late John Bonham. He was the drummer I followed and learned most from when I started playing at the age of 9. I remember the jazz drummer who lived next door complaining about rock drummers not having chops and about them not being "real" drummers. I still remember the look on his face when I proved him wrong by playing "Moby Dick" for him. This drummer began to teach me after that and NEVER spoke badly of rock drummers on the whole again. I also showed him some Mitch Mitchell stuff that he had to agree was great drumming. Anyway, back to those John Bonham raw drum tracks...... They are filled with "Bonzo" making the very same sounds. They are obviously an essential part of how he creates groove. You could make fun of him for those sounds, but he was a drummer who had serious groove. Many other great musicians have been that way. Niño Ricardo is another who hummed along as he played if I am not mistaken as well as Rubenstein on the piano.

Back to the note-for-note thing.... I never claimed Roberto was playing this piece note-for-note. Life is too short. Relax brother. What were you playing on the guitar when you were 10? I was hard at work trying to master "Smoke on the Water" and picking my nose.

Now here is a lesson for you Romb that doesn't come from the Webster's dictionary. Warmth is an essential part of the flamenco art. Most of the great flamenco artists have enormous warmth. Roberto has great warmth and that is worth a lot more than perfectly played notes anyday. Here is a link to a live radio broadcast of Roberto not playing perfectly without me grunting and drowning him out with the cajon.[;)]

Remember he's just a kid.....
http://flamenco-lessons.com/npr.mp3




Ailsa -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 11:36:20)

quote:

About my groaning....... It is completely involuntary and is a component of how I process rhythm.


I'm relieved to find I'm not the only one. I've been quite alarmed recently to find myself humming along to my playing! I think it's because I learn the sounds of the music quickly but my fingers are a bit on the slow side. So I tend to 'sing' everything in my head, and occasionally it comes out of my mouth too! [:D][:D]

But I have to disagree that Nino Ricardo 'hummed' as he played. I was listening to him in the car recently and was wondering where the plaintive groaning was coming from until I realised it was him! That was so not "humming" [:D][:D]




JasonMcGuire -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 11:42:45)

Ailsa. Always be yourself. No need to be a "note-for-note", "sanitized for your protection" kind of player. Have fun. If you make groaning noises, you make groaning noises. If you hum, you hum. So what. One thing that I can tell about you through your choice of words in your posts, is that you are a warm and supportive person. Support is a concept that was DRILLED into my head when I was living with the Cortes family learning how to play. "Its all about support when you are onstage, you can only be as good as your support (accompanist) allows. Be a great accompanist. Be supportive always." Same goes for teaching.


Ricardo Diaz made a funny joke to me one night about my groaning.... "When you play Jason, you are like a beast. It makes me want to throw you some raw meat." ........ he wasn't talking about my playing.[:D]

....Romb. I appreciate you and all of your support too. I know your heart is in the right place. I applaud you for giving me impetus to speak my mind about things I hold dear.
Now about note-for-note and Cañizares.......
Learn this.......[8D]

http://flamenco-lessons.com/canizares.mp3

That will grow some hair on your chest! Be careful Ailsa, you may want to skip learning this one..[;)]




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 12:44:18)

Maestro Jason!

I know I should loosen up. I've always been told that, and I guess that is just part of who I am. Might have something to do with all the stress I have to handle day-in-day-out at the hospital with patients and their problems, etc. Might also have to do with the fact that I am a bit of a perfectionist... You're right. Life IS too short!

Who said anything about compas? Obviously, that is the most important thing when it comes to flamenco.

About what I was playing on guitar when I was 10: NOTHING! I only started playing at age 16, and that is something I regret now. But that's that. I never claimed it was something that had to do with Roberto solely. Had it been ToddK or Ricardo or Ron or any other guitarist playing that tune the way Roberto was playing it (that specific part I mentioned), I would have made the same comments. On the contrary, I applaud Roberto tremendously and that is made clear by the fact that I created a thread just a while back with a link to his videos from the Montalvo website.

You are absolutely right about warmth when it comes to ANY type of music. That is something I might lack in. I've received many comments about being too cold a performer, and not FEELING music much. Still, one can be quite warm while playing something as close to the original as possible (and thus making me feel much better [:D]).

And about that Canizares tune: I think I TOO will skip this one for now considering that I am TOO busy preparing for three concerts, and six year-long final exams while working shifts and being on-call for the coming two months. I'll still try to have a go at your bulerias challenge, however.

Adios!




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 12:50:34)

Roberto has a remarkable sensitivity and I especially like his use of dynamics. It was a really musical performance.

I read the comments on your site about your “inner caveman” and who knows maybe I’ll run into this as I progress. BTW, I enjoyed your performance on the cajon. I can’t recall any other vids or audio uploads on FF where the cajon was so prominent.




JasonMcGuire -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 13:24:20)

You have plenty of warmth Ramzi and your points are well taken. Your reply proves your warmth and humility. The art of discussion is the art of arguing points in a logical way and then if possible coming to a meaningful agreement in the end where all parties walk away with something learned. I can say that I have learned from the ensuing discussion that was inspired by your well baited hook. I also applaud you on all the amazing endeavors that contribute to your stress. Flamenco is not at all like being a physician or surgeon. If we make a mistake... no big deal, no lawsuit, life goes on. In the medical arena..... perfection is key. In music you are indeed a reflection of who you are in everyday life. Best of luck on the exams and the challenge.

I would love to see a video of the "socks on the hands" version if anyone is so bold. Perhaps that brave sould might add some well placed grunting noises to further enhance the comic relief. I may have to make a special award for that video....[:)]


Cheers,




cathulu -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 16 2009 22:12:07)

Yah dude, like your guitar on fire for example [:D][:D][:D]

Anyways, respect to both of you and for sharing your opinions and I had a bit too much wine for Thursday night. Wifey is away and a bottle on the bedside... Cheers!

PS Ramzi, compared to you I am a dead fish on the guitar!




Adam -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 0:50:57)

rombsix - Come on man!! It's flamenco!!

Since when is any piece or any falseta about being played note-for-note? It's about the aire and another note here or there doesn't change things. When I learn an established piece with my teacher or some well-known falseta, it has some of his own touches and I'll play with it a bit too. These aren't classical compositions that need to be transcribed note-for-note.

Case in point: hardly any flamenco guitarist performs a piece (or falseta) live like it is on CD (much less note-for-note). So which version of "Tres Notas" is the "right" one for me to play? The one from Ciudad de las Ideas? From the DVD? From some YouTube vid? The version I learned with my guitar teacher incorporates a bit of different ones - a grace note/chord here that's not in the disc, a slightly different sequence of notes there, etc. And so what? It's about the aire, man, about making something that sounds cool, not about note-for-note recollection as if it's Beethoven or something.

(of course, if the New York Phil were to "improvise" on Beethoven's Fifth I'd be pretty pissed! [:D])




mark indigo -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 1:10:21)

i've had lessons where the teacher refused to show me a falseta note for note, saying "don't try to play it exactly the same, it's your own interpretation" and that seems a more flamenco attitude to me.

Jason you must be proud of this kid, he's awesome, and i like that word you use "support".... that's what i have in mind where kids are concerned, encouragement and support (and holding back with the criticism that i might level at someone charging money to see them perform on stage), and like you say, it's really important when performing too.

I wish more people would support each other on stage instead of doing their own thing and/or trying to show off how good (they think) they are, and/or trying to show other people up and make them look bad. I don't like playing with these people!




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 5:58:29)

Dave:

I believe that you should start off learning the original of any piece, note-for-note. After you've mastered the original, THEN you can modify it and add any of your own bits. I say that applies to ANY type of music.

For me: "aire plus note-for-note" is better than "aire minus note-for-note." This goes to show the importance of aire, but also the importance of note-for-note - at least in my eyes.

And about what version of any tune you are to learn: The ORIGINAL! That means, you look for the FIRST creation/rendition of this piece, and learn it. In Tres Notas' case, that means the one from the CD - Ciudad de las Ideas!




Andy Culpepper -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 7:23:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix


And about what version of any tune you are to learn: The ORIGINAL! That means, you look for the FIRST creation/rendition of this piece, and learn it. In Tres Notas' case, that means the one from the CD - Ciudad de las Ideas!



The beautiful thing about Flamenco for me, is that my "pieces" are in a constant state of evolution. I'm constantly replacing poorer falsetas with better ones, rearranging, extending, and modifying falsetas when I have new ideas. Usually about 1 month after I record something, I no longer feel that it adequately represents my playing. Even Paco de Lucia said that if it was possible, he would have not recorded any albums, just saved everything up and done one incredible album at the end of his career. He heard someone playing his Alegrias in their car and thought that it was ****, because he could record it better now, or write a better one.
The point is that the version of a piece that appears on an artist's album may not be the version that the artist is most proud of anymore. Obviously if they are playing it differently live, then they wanted to change something. Just a thought.




Adam -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 7:47:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

And about what version of any tune you are to learn: The ORIGINAL! That means, you look for the FIRST creation/rendition of this piece, and learn it. In Tres Notas' case, that means the one from the CD - Ciudad de las Ideas!


Rombsix, I get the sentiment, but don't you think that that's kind of completely arbitrary? Why the original? What's so special about it?

You seem to be imposing on flamenco a kind of individualism that I really don't believe it has. Flamenco is about the music far more than the artists. What is the point in faithfully reproducing, note-for-note (flamenco can be so nonchalant with individual notes that that seems almost silly to say), a piece? Doesn't the faithful reproduction risk taking away the "flamenco" aspect, the all-important laissez-faire attitude? Doesn't it make pieces less *interesting*? Do you really want to see every damn person who plays "Tres Notas" play it like from the CD? Sounds like at that point I'd rather just listen to the CD.




Jan Willem -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 8:08:41)

quote:

He heard someone playing his Alegrias in their car and thought that it was ****,


If I remember correctly; it was he himself who was playing...

JW




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 8:48:53)

deteresa1: Point well-taken. Touche!

Dave: True, but what if you think about each falseta? I don't mind someone switching around falsetas or their order, adding or removing falsetas from a "piece," but what I DON'T like is for someone to play a whole falseta similar to the original, while making mistakes or slight changes and claiming that that is "their version." I don't mind if you play a falseta and replace part of that falseta with your own bit (maybe because the original had a picado run that was too fast), but just don't try to make your falseta sound similar to the original, but not fully because you are messing it up. You know what I mean?

If you play something from the original, make it sound FULLY like the original, or else, just don't play it (because I assume that the way you are playing it is turning out to be different from the original simply because it is either too hard for you, or that you stink at playing but just want to play something and say it is your rendition to cover up the fact that you're not so great a player).

Do you agree? (and I was addressing the above as "you" when obviously I wasn't referring to you personally)

Ay! Karamba! [8D]




JasonMcGuire -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 8:54:27)

I doubt any of us can change Ramzi's firm point of view on this. He is entitled his opinion just as we who disagree are entitled to ours. I must say to DeTeresa that his way of thinking is very flamenco and if recorded music did not exist most flamenco players would approach their "compositions" this way. I doubt there would really be too many complete flamenco compositions..... just falsetas. It is the foundation of how the art of flamenco works. Dancers have "pasos", singers have "letras", and guitarists have "falsetas". The recording industry has offered some advantages to the world, but it has done much damage to flamenco as well. Recording offers a means of packaging and selling something intangible. I have mixed feelings about recording myself and I own a studio.

Anyway..... wasn't this thread about "the kid".




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 9:13:46)

quote:

Anyway..... wasn't this thread about "the kid".


[:D] Sorry for hijacking Roberto's thread!




Andy Culpepper -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 10:34:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
what I DON'T like is for someone to play a whole falseta similar to the original, while making mistakes or slight changes and claiming that that is "their version."



Understandable.




DonS -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 11:11:54)

Impresionante....I can't believe he is just 10 years old! I also agree that in flamenco note for note is not as important as Aire y Compas. Lets leave the note for note for the clásicos..

Now Cañizares...that guy can play classical and flamenco. I had front row seats to his duo concert in Ft Lauderdale WOW. He is still my #1 favorite flamenco guitarist of the younger generation..




Ailsa -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 11:41:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
what I DON'T like is for someone to play a whole falseta similar to the original, while making mistakes or slight changes and claiming that that is "their version."


Oh dear I'm hijacking the thread too [&o][&o] sorry.

But I'm interested in the above remark. A while ago I had learnt a Tango falseta from Rafael in Oxford. When I played it back to him I changed the rhythm a little to make it more syncopated. At first he thought I had made a mistake but when I showed him it was deliberate he just said, "OK fine. As long as it's in compas you can do whatever you want with it." So I did. [:D] So when I play that falseta it's is still Rafael's composition. But is it "my version"?




rombsix -> RE: My young student Roberto (Apr. 17 2009 11:55:21)

Ailsa: I find that is more acceptable than fiddling around with the actual notes... Keeping in mind that it was still in compas. [;)]




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