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Having realised there are some serious and heavy technicians amongst this honorable and respectable forum of guitarists I wish to venture a technical question, and hope for the best.
My problem is quite specific in that it concerns movement of the Pulgar in perhaps a fashion which is not Flamenco-like; I don't know, for I'm a novice to this style of music.
I'm trying to emulate a sound which is widespread amongst jazz players called sweeping - meaning one sweeps with a púa (plectrum) along a group of strings in either direction - sweeping (picking) downwards towards the floor while going up pitchwise (strings 6 to 1) and sweeping (picking) up going back down pitchwise (strings 1 to 6),
Now forget the plectrum and lets concentrate on the pulgar; I find that sweeping downwards with the pulgar is quite do-able but how to perform the reverse? Now, THAT is the question. The idea is that the sound of either movement - down and up - should be equally smooth; is that possibe at all? Is there any hope the pulgar could eventually be developed in such a way as to make an upward sweep possible at all - or should I just forget about it and try finding different solutions?
The only formula I've discovered so far is to play the six strings from low to high with the pulgar (thumb) and then immediately reverse (going back down) with a double set of "a-m-i " - so, the whole "movement" would look like this:
p-p-p-p-p-p- followed by a-m-i-a-m-i-
or perhaps as an alternative:
p-p-p-p-p-i and then a-m-i-a-m-i
All notes played sequencially on the following strings-sets:
6-5-4-3-2-1 and then 1-2-3-4-5-6
Looping the whole lot so it will sound triplet-like: talita talita talita talita....
I'll try to upload a pdf thing in order to illustrate what I'm trying to accomplish. This is my first attempt; I hope everything will work!
The notes are all taken from a major pentatonic scale in the key of C - (formula: 1.2.3.5.6) and in the examples all five modes are involved but the musical articulation - picking of the notes - is identical in all of them: "sweeping" from low to high and, somehow, back from high to low - in a loop fashion.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
The way I see it, there are two ways of doing this "flamenco-style:"
1- The way PdL does it in Tio Sabas (you can find a thread about that somewhere on the foro): he goes down and up via i-m-i-m (i.e. using regular, but super-fast and super-accurate picado)
2- You can use the Arrastre technique: go from 6th to 1st whichever way you want, and go from 1st to 6th via the "a" finger. Check this link out to get an idea:
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Here is what I do. Pmpimaimipm (6543212345).
If you want to get good speed and articulation this works well. If you want a sloppy mush, do it like that video.
If I were you I would try and get a hold of Villa Lobos etude number two, that is a great workout and an actual piece of music. You could try and do it all im alternation, but in my humble opinion that would be grotesquely stupid.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Hey Greeny.
Arpeggios and sweeps have been around along time before Jazz and metal guitarists. From Classical guitar repertoire there are many good studies in obtaining beautiful arpeggios. Some of these techniques have found their ways into flamenco technique and some have not. Francisco Tarrega came up with several amazing sudies in arpeggio, notably study 6, study 11 and the estudio brillante. This shows a nice view of julian breams right hand
Later composers such as Villa lobos wrote beautiful arpeggio studies such as this one (etude number2)
The technique for sweeping 6 strings (ie playing from sixth string to first and then back down to sixth in a single arpeggio) is usually p,p,p,i,m,a going up, and then dragging the a finger back down the second,third forth, fifth and sixth string. This sound is heard a lot in taranta
The much (ten times) more difficult paco de lucia Technique is Bottom 6th, 5th and 4th strings played with p (downstroke) and the next 3 strings with i,m,a respectively then going backwards m,i,m,i,p starting on the second string ending with p on the 6th string. This technique is covered fairly extensively in the thread "Tio Sabas technique" posted here www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=75586&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=taranta&tmode=&smode=&s=#75588 It sounds like an arpeggio but I've only seen paco de lucia make it work very well!!
In terms of sweep picking where you go back on the string you just played with the pick, there are similar techniques in Alzapua but sweep picked arpeggios with the thumb dont really exist in flamenco. (I nthink) Ricardo would be the best person to ask that as he did quite a lot of shredding when he was younger. Quite a few threads have been devoted to incorporating electric guitar runs and techniques into flamenco but as yet, i dont know of anyone doing it.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
If I were you I would try and get a hold of Villa Lobos etude number two,
Ha Ha , we were thinkin the same thing at the same time!
Also, your arpeggio is a simplified version of the Villa lobos etude#1 arpeggio? The #1 took my over a year to get fast and clean with the a,m, a switch on the top 2 strings
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to Pimientito)
Pimiento, that is just that I have found to give me most control. I can accent any note I choose and there are no problems with accuracy. But you are right I DID discover this (using the m finger to get the thumb from 6 to 4 and back) when I was working on study number one. It is effective up to about 150 (in semiquavers) afterwards you would resort to one of the options below.
The techniqe most like sweeping pppppiiiii (6543212345) which most people use for the Aranjuez played from the forearm like a pick. Another one which Pepe Romero suggests in his edition of the Rodrigo Invocacion y Danza is ppimaiiiii where the right hand is planted on strings 234 and the index jumpe up the the first string to start the Arastre, here the index finger articulate the arastere to keep the hand in a good postition for the ppima part (in the video of the japanese dude the arastre is articulated by a movement of the whole forearm).
Although I am a big fan of Bream I think his technique on the Tarrega is truly awful. He insn't actually articulating his fingers but is playing the whole thing with his wrist. Not a good model. Here is a chinese chick showing some awsome chops and accuracy on the Barrios study in A. Although she is a little flat in terms of interpretation she is a good model for acccuracy and effiiciency.
I like to play this considerably faster and it is a great fun piece to play exuberantly along with a Tangos track.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Thats a great link....she looks like a porcelain doll. I wont criticise her interpretation...i wish i could play it that cleanly! I loaded the Bream version of Tarrega 'cos many of the other videos were even worse! I was pointing out that Tarrega was doing this stuff 100 years ago, whereas Barrios is 50 odd years later. By the way, i found this youtube performane of las abejas which is stunning
Its interesting you talked about the arpeggio in Aranjuez. That never made sense to me either. Its clear that Rodrigo ( a pianist) would have wanted a strong arpeggio. Romeros offer of pppima is very sensible and coming down with i is much stronger.
On a slight tangent, the rasgeo in Albeniz Cordoba is another example where a classical tranposer could have learned a lot from a flamenco guitarist. John Williams gets quite a good triplet with 2 fingers but why dont some of these classical guys just learn some flamenco rasgeos....after all many of these pieces are based on Spanish dances. The De Falla 3 cornered hat sounds crap with classical technique...it was written in Granada after all!
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to Pimientito)
Rodrigo describes his wish for the Aranjuez '....the soul of a guitar and the wings of a harp.'
Definately looking for a harplike sound in that section. Funnily enough the piano is just a harp in a box.
As for classical guitarists not being able to strum or do rasgueado, it is madness. Strumming is the sound that is most typical of plucked strings, it is every guitarists right to use this sound and groove with it. The insistance in conservatoires of avoiding this technique is bizarre.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
The insistance in conservatoires of avoiding this technique is bizarre.
THANK YOU!!! I cannot fathom it either....it must be simple snobbery or something.
Flamenco may well at one time have been quite a rootsy folk form but no-one can deny that today it has a technique that is equal ond often greater than that of its classical contemporaries. To Ignore this level of musicianship just because its "not classical" is an elitist establishment attitude that only serves to slow progress. The great thing with flamenco is you can come up with a new technique or stray from "the score". Its actually encouraged. Its a big reason i left the classical world behind. The flamenco composers themselves play their own compositions differently every time. Great composers like Mozart left huge gaps in their scores for improvisations..thats how music should be...not the rigid robot like score reproduction that the conservatories instill
(I'll stop ranting now before this turns into one of Flos 3 page posts where i leave the forum)
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Greeny, how is your sweeping with a pick first of all? Understand there is a big difference in the sound of the technique that involves LEFT HAND separation. Check out Frank Gambale to see how important the left hand moves are when sweep picking.
In flamenco, you usually don't separate the notes of the arp, you want the dissonant tones to ring out, it is part of the style, not so with jazz/rock sweeping. So no matter what combo of up and down you use, you must decide what the sound you want is. (I second the options meantioned pppima->, and pppppiiiiiii etc. But what is the left hand doing, and the timing of the move is so important). The Paco Taranta lick mentioned is an exception, the left hand separates.
Beyond that if you check out Nunez Encuentro vid, the pulgar section, you see he likes to use the thumbnail backwards too after all, literally the same as sweeping, but the sound coming up is so different obviously. Nunez also does the same thing with pulgar like Gambales economy picking scales (3 note per string, down-down-up, down-down-up) where you drag across the string two notes, and literally up pick with the back of the thumb nail for third note. Or you can simply "alternate pick" with the thumb nail. Nunez has a nice Solea falseta like that on "Calima".
So lots of possibilities, most likely anything you can think up has probably been done by someone.
EDIT, Some insight into the possible reason for the "snobbery" and separation of the technique and forms that distinguish classical guitar and flamenco guitar. It all started with this guy IMO: Check 7:00-
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
First off, my gratitude for the very informative and detailed posts; thanks Guitar Buddha, Pimientito, Ricardo....
I shall look into the Villa Lobos guitar etudes, I've heard about them but haven't got much of a clue as to what they are about.
About the sweeping arpegios and other melodic motives spanning the six strings I do recognise a few that were mentioned here by you.
I particularily like : p-p-p-i-m-a followed by i-m-i-m-i-m (my own variation: p-p-p-i-m-a m-i-m-i-m-i )
and the other important one: p-p-p-p-p-i i-i-i-i-i-i.
The basic idea I had when I put the question to you was to find ways (techniques) to use those 'sweeps of notes' like one would as in
example a cierre or remate,or anywhere else for that matter. Basically as a series of triplet notes (see the attachment depicting a G major nine idea).
And Ricardo thanks for asking - well yes I can do a bit of sweeping with the pick, nothing close to Gambale's three hundred miles an hour routine stuff, more like sixty of seventy!
Years ago I had done quite a bit of research in the developing of ideas performing diatonic declinations, you know transposing notes into various modes while maintaining idential right hand picking patterns - those etudes yielded a colossal amount of melodic and technical exercices but in the end all they really did besides often overwhelming me was to stretch the ears into uncharted territories....and that was pretty good ear training I guess.
Yes I know of Gerardo Nunez and his great DVD + book - got as a birthday gift last year. Beautiful book, really, but it's all very very hard work.
His examples for the pulgar and alzapuas require a lot of strength and endurance.
Like I said I'm a novice at this style I've been at it for about a year and a half; I've worked my way through the two Graf-Martinez books on flamenco guitar as well as his volume called Gypsy Guitar. And some materials in the Nunez Encuentro DVD and book.
In the end I've been so lucky to discover this site and receive helpful tips from you folks. Its so nice to be able to communicate with great musicians such as yourselves!
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Hmm, I am not following you on that example....sweeping triplets of those notes???? Can you write the notes, left to right in the true sequence you want? For example:
Here's an answer to the one above: F#m7, say phrygian - using the same intervallic note structure only diatonically transposed a step down (mode IV to mode III)
LH:1.4.4.(x)1.1 (x).2.1.4.3.2. - - - Note (x) signifies no left-hand finger for it applies to an open string - is there another symbol to depict an open string?
Here's one which I could use on the Emaj7- D# chords example you showed me using a pentatonic sequence.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Hi Greeny, I would love to help you with these ideas. I need more information. What form are you aiming for. What rhythm do you want to play them in. At what speed. Do you need any notes to sustain. Why have you avoided the open strings and lower positions that would make them much easier to play (you keep using a left hand extension to bar on three bass strings when an index finger bar-or indeed three open strings- five frets lower would be much easier and make the string crossing simpler).
It looks that you are thinking from a distorted tone electric guitar perspective. To be blunt these fingerings are bad. They look very like the kind of fingerings that Gambale uses, and whilst they might be interesting to look at a later date I really think that getting a handle on playing some sensible and basic FINGERSTYLE guitar with standard (ish) fingerings would be a much more useful thing for you to do right now.
Another alternative for sweeping (used by Williams on the Villa Lobos concerto) is this. PimPimamiami, this scores highly when you want to phrase in triplets. If you want sixteenth notes then PmPima (up) iamimi on the way down will be as good as any. The fingerings RH we have discussed so far are not appropriate to any of your examples because you need to play two notes on the sixth and first strings.
The problem that I have (and I am sure that I am not alone) with the way that Frank Gambale fingers his arpeggios is that his insistance on playing a new note on each new string leads to a somewhat 'random' collection of intervals which dont sount particularly melodic in most contexts. I like the idea of using arpeggios to play MELODIES or at least attractive sounding harmony. Relentless successions of fourth and tritones played over massive intervals whilst they can be fun at times tend to 'throw' the ear and obscure harmonic context. They are most at home where Gambale puts them in Modal/Fusion jazz where they are used as an effect and not with any particular melodic or harmonic intention (unless making teenage boys gasp counts)
Maybe if you uploaded something that you are actually playing (a piece, not a few bars with no context )and which includes these arpeggios then I could get a better handle on what you are trying to achieve. At the moment though I am ....confused.
D.
PS. just exactly what is Pentatonic in that example (the fact that it starts with a tritone sure isn't ) is it the Eb 7 sus four arp, if so then I would avoid the sus four as it completely undermines any sense of resolution to the phrygian tonic ?
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
GuitarBuddha,
Apologies for the induced confusion - I guess I'm also confused.
It's difficult to give you the types of information you have suggested, for the single reason that I've not yet, myself, come to fathom the qualities of the required materials I need to deal with at this time.
Rhythms? Well, I'd say locked to a specified groove.
Speed? Tempo-di-learno.
Open strings? I've often avoided those because of misplaced conceptions, but they do sound so beautiful.
Simplicity? Comes with wisdom and experience I guess, both of which I lack concerning fingerstyle guitar playing.
The RH fingering formulae you spelled above dealing with arpegios are really very nice - I've spent the entire evening last night investigating them, and discovered a lot of road-work ahead. Pmi as well as ami are fantastic little building blocks that can find a multitude of applications such as triads, single note motifs, small or partial harmonies, etc... these small nucleii are exacly the sort of things I can put to good use right now in order to develop proper feel and facility on the instrument.
Speaking of "instrument", last week I purchased my first Flamenco guitar, an Alhambra 7Fc. The last six months or so I had practiced on an old barrowed cheap korean something with nylon strings, but now all of a sudden I feel reborn, amazed and inspired! The whole year before that, wanting so much to learn about Flamenco I had simply held on to my old Yamaha steel string dreaming of better days ahead but already learning a bit about basic Flamenco techniques consulting books and dvd's. Now today with a real instrument things are looking and sounding much better.
Concerning those intervallic designs I had mentioned previously, be they pentatonic or not, are indeed not the best materials I need to develop right now. Yesterday I went to my local sheet-music store and got a copy of the Villa-Lobos 12 guitar etudes, but to my horror discovered they had no right-hand fingerings - too late to return the book for I had already scribbled in my name and date of purchase - stooopid, better check next time! It had the name Andres Segovia printed on the cover so I thought this must be good so I went for it... Anyway, it'll just take more time and considerable effort to deal with those etudes; they do look very challenging though. I hear great things about the Merengue de Cordoba volumes.
About uploading stuff for you to listen to - it's a disappointing rain-check at this time for I have no idea where and with what to start showing-off. I need some time, perhaps lots of time, to get familiar with the idiom. I'm still learning the alphabet and simple words as opposed to writing paragraphs and bringing things within context, so to speak.
However I do really appreciate all the responses and the given examples I've received and I shall spend all of my free energies in order to get my fingers and my nervous system acquainted with the techniques, the grooves and palo's.... Flamenco guitar has come and grabbed me away from all the rest like a bolt of lightening, finally, after all these years. It yet remains to be seen how much of it I shall be able to absorb for I'm not the youngest person anymore, I'm actually 56 (soon 57) but Flamenco is such a beautiful seductress which requires time, dedication and great stamina, certainly not a one-night-stand! But it truly has revitalised my love for the guitar.
Thanks to all of you for the advice, tips and the interest - you make up a very fine crowd.
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
It looks that you are thinking from a distorted tone electric guitar perspective. To be blunt these fingerings are bad.
Hey GB, I thought that this fact was obvious from the get go of this thread. My point about the LH fingerings being important for "sweeping" earlier, and my suggestions (above) are for sure the "electric guitar" type ones, but rather even on acoustic guitar, to achieve the effect, one would have to do that sort or separated fingering. Is it flamenco style? No way, but I felt he was trying to simply see if there were a flamenco RH way of "sweeping", not necessarily does "sweeping occur in flamenco". About Gambale, well it is just a technique, his musical approach is another thing, and from what I can tell, it is more than an "effect". For sure he has developed an enviable fluidity for improvising on changes, outside of your standard box patterns and shapes.
Frankly I am impressed (with myself) that I was able to decipher greeny's orginal tab, pretty close to what he was going for.
Oh yeah, to greeny, LH (or fret hand for los zurdos) fingers are: 0=open 1=index 2=middle 3=ring 4=pinky TH=thumb (yes that would be thumb used on the fingerboard some how...I know GB may gasp at the insinuation for classical or flamenco, but hey you never know... )
quote:
PS. just exactly what is Pentatonic in that example (the fact that it starts with a tritone sure isn't ) is it the Eb 7 sus four arp, if so then I would avoid the sus four as it completely undermines any sense of resolution to the phrygian tonic ?
There are different types of pentatonic scales, beyond the famous major/minor. The one he is using is EG#A#C#D#, so I think modal it is an Emaj7#11, with the 6th replacing the 5th. So, not a resolution, but the suspension (ii chord in D# phrygian). I personally use a similar pentatonic quite often that has B instead of the C#. Both have a nice "lydian" color. (His scale better serves dorian from C#) There are actually lots more cool pentatonics. Same harmony, you could use EF#A#BD#, another nice "lydian" pentatonic.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Hi Greeny, thank you for the courtesy and kindess of your response, I clearly need instruction in this department.
Don't want to scare you away, your enthusiasm and invention are welcome here.
Villa Lobos etude no 1 RH pmpi pmia maim pipm (notice basic placement -basses=thumb,trebles=ima - with the exception that m takes the fourth string on two occasions).
I really hope you are enjoying your new guitar and use your excitement to dig in to some new ground.
Any questions on the Villa Lobos then I will be glad to offer suggestions.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
About Gambale, well it is just a technique, his musical approach is another thing, and from what I can tell, it is more than an "effect". For sure he has developed an enviable fluidity for improvising on changes, outside of your standard box patterns and shapes.
TH=thumb (yes that would be thumb used on the fingerboard some how...I know GB may gasp at the insinuation for classical or flamenco, but hey you never know... )
My problem with Gambale is that I still hear harmony as a collection of voices (even when arpeggiated) and when they do not resolve in any direction at all, my ear quickly gets turned off. There is literally no direction. He is a monster player but never heard a melody of his I wanted to play. As for his approach to improvising on changes, he seems to play either any arpeggios at all in the key or stampede for blues licks. Give me Jimmy Raney any day.
As for you casting me as the evil consertive, cool I shall don my black cape forthwith. You all better watch out lest I chop off your thumbs. Bleugh ha ha haaaah.
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
He is a monster player but never heard a melody of his I wanted to play. As for his approach to improvising on changes, he seems to play either any arpeggios at all in the key or stampede for blues licks.
I don't disagree about not being into his soloing ideas, but too many times his cool technique idea gets written off by folks not into his actual music. Like "he sounds weird, I'll stick to alternate picking". I can't say I can play like him or follow it all, but for sure it is not like you make it sound, random arps and blues licks. I personally hear a lot more there, it is just when it gets going fast it is hard to hear. Doesn't mean it is random notes for the sake of speed. He just developed a way to get around the neck faster, and therefore can't help but explore it. He like many jazz guys play the changes, taking each chord as a separate island of possiblity, without thinking about connecting it all or making a thread. But it is just a different approach, and his technique allows him an advantage.
quote:
As for you casting me as the evil consertive, cool I shall don my black cape forthwith.
I was just teasing anyway, I agree that we should keep focused to flamenco techniques and save all the sweeping and theory for off topics, or the Vai forums.
Ricardo PS, I edit my other post regarding pentatonics after you posted...just in case you missed it.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to Ricardo)
What's wrong with major seventh agumented eleventh ? Sure and five note scale can be described as pentatonic and also any five note chord can be claimed to be a pentatonic scale. How about A,A#,B,C,D#, mm my facourite.
I like my pentatonics to sound , well 'pentatonicy'. I like truly pentatonic chords like the 6/9 chords (major and minor) used in latin music. For me a pentatonic scale has major seconds and minor thirds. In this context tritones are blue notes which may or may note resolve. Notes inserted between major seconds in general are blue notes, notes inserted between minor thirds are allusions to modes.
I never saw this written down in theory but it quickly becomes apparent when you play through jazz transcriptions. I would much rather think of arpeggiated five note chords as ....... arpeggiated five note chords ! Adding the label pentatonic is I think of questionable use (unless one is terribly keen to show that they know the latin for five) since it adds no new information. Also I find it to be a distraction from the way that I look at pentatonics since that system seems to work well for me and has some characteristics (above) which distinguish them from other scalar or arpeggio material.
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
What's wrong with major seventh agumented eleventh ? Sure and five note scale can be described as pentatonic and also any five note chord can be claimed to be a pentatonic scale. How about A,A#,B,C,D#, mm my facourite.
I like my pentatonics to sound , well 'pentatonicy'. I like truly pentatonic chords like the 6/9 chords (major and minor) used in latin music. For me a pentatonic scale has major seconds and minor thirds. In this context tritones are blue notes which may or may note resolve. Notes inserted between major seconds in general are blue notes, notes inserted between minor thirds are allusions to modes.
I never saw this written down in theory but it quickly becomes apparent when you play through jazz transcriptions. I would much rather think of arpeggiated five note chords as ....... arpeggiated five note chords ! Adding the label pentatonic is I think of questionable use (unless one is terribly keen to show that they know the latin for five) since it adds no new information. Also I find it to be a distraction from the way that I look at pentatonics since that system seems to work well for me and has some characteristics (above) which distinguish them from other scalar or arpeggio material.
D. (spins in cape and flounces off).
No problems with having different ways to look at things. Emaj7#11 is fine EXCEPT he uses the C#. You think a pentatonic is a "5 note chord", and still others understand ANY CHORD is the notes of a scale heard all at once. Two sides of the same coin, no problems there. I just thought since you asked "how was it pentatonic" you might care to know. You think of it as a piece of a bigger scale (like I used the term lydian, so simply choice notes from that, right?) when you have the tritone involve. Well how about your fav major/minor pentatonic scales are nothing more than your good ol major and minor scales DELIBERATELY avoiding the tritone? Again, it is just a different way to describe it.
The legit reason for taking a "scale fragment", tritone involved or not, and naming it it's own entity, is borrowed right from modal music. In fact those "weird" pentatonics come from Japanese music and have special names like "hirojoshi", at least that is where some metal guys have been stealing them from. The idea is they are not "fragments", but you simply and deliberately avoid certain intervals, and 5 notes= pentatonic scales. Hexatonic could be 6 note scales if you want. Whole tone, etc. H/W diminished scale has 8 notes, so octatonic? Just names to describe, nothing more, not right or wrong.
As one experiments, one can come up with any number of "favorites", using 5 notes, 6 notes, 7, 8, 9, etc up to chromatic. You think my personal pentatonic fav is NOT really a separate scale, but I do when I play it, in fact it has even a nice "box pattern". An arp can be a broken chord, or a guitar technique. I dont' have a problem with someone using a pentatonic scale, or any scale for that matter, and calling it an "arpegio technique"...at least as far as guitar is concerned. It all depends HOW you are doing it.
Anyway, not trying to change you mind about what you "like" or think pentatonic SHOULD mean, just trying to shed some light on why some people might use a certain terminology. Peace.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to Ricardo)
Hey guys!
Just a note on the pentatonic ideas we spoke about earlier.
I was taught long ago that a pentatonic scale was just a regular seven note scale with the fourth and seventh degree omitted - pentatonic formula: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6.
We all know and use this in the major (Ionian) mode most of the time, even when we play this familiar pentatonic scale in any of its five different inversions (starting on any of its five degrees), as simple as it is it can get much very colorful and surprising when one constructs five note pentatonic tone rows (utilizing the 1,2 3,5,6 formula) inside different scale types and upon their contained modes. Melodic minor, harmonic minor, etc....
For instance take the harmonic major scale in C - a regular major scale with a flatted sixth whose formula is: 1,2,3,4,5,b6,7 (C D E F G Ab B C).
Choose its pentatonic version : 1,2,3,5,b6 ( C D E G Ab C) - it certainly sounds more exotic than a plain major-scale pentatonic version, and that with just one simple alteration.
We can take it a step further. Using the same harmonic major scale (C D E F G Ab B C), start from a different degree, let's say V (its Dominant) - G Ab B C D E F G - it gives us a nice seventh flat nine chord (G7b9) sound when anchored on G.
Now siphon out the fourth and seventh degree to make it pentatonic (1 2 3 5 6) it becomes G Ab B D E. Nice and moody, but vaguely dominant sounding, BUT, now played in its own fourth inversion the exact same group of notes makes for a very nice E7(#9) bluesy sound. E G Ab (G#) B D E.
The point I'm trying to make is to show that within any seven note scale we can build an original pentatonic version from each of its seven diatonic modes, and, that each one of these seven different pentatonic scales can be played in anyone of its own five inversions. Every single one will spread its own scent, color, ambiance, mood or what have you.
Classical Indian music often makes use of these qualities when going through the formal thematic steps of building up a classical raga; by restricting the amount of notes to work with one has to look and listen deeper, all in the knowledge and awareness of where the chosen notes originally came from - from which parent scale that is. Often while improvising an Indian musician will use a specific mode of a pentatonic tone row in a section of his composition and later shift to another mode of another pentatonic scale built from a different mode within the parent scale. It can get pretty evolved with a very limited amount of notes, never more than seven!
I thought flamenco was also a lot about improvisation!
Anyway, there it is : pentatonics briefly revisited!
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to greeny)
Thank you very much Greeny. I really like building scales UP in complexity. Here is a partial list.
1. Triads 2. Pentatonics (two more notes but avoiding any semitones) 3. Diatonic scalar material. (another two notes) 4. Octatonic scales (chord/bebop scales) 5. Chromatic alterations 6. Other chord extension of four notes or more with each additional note included in ever octave. 7. Symmetrical scales ommitting some chord tones. 8. Scales built from chords of a different flavour with the same root.
What I really like about this is the way of looking at that when I practice I can 'feel' my scalar resources 'growing' out of the chord with which I am associating them. So when improvising I simply think of the chord of the moment in that position of the neck and play the scales BY EAR relying on my experience of building them up in layers to guide my ear to exotic or straight sounds as the mood takes me but without really having to think about anything other than where the chord tones lie in whatever position I find myself on the neck.
Looking at it my way the pentatonic of first recourse for minor chords omits the second (it is an inversion of the pentatonic major). So I tend to think of my pentatonics as those notes which avoid semitones and generate scales which sound pentatonic and not exotic. The chords you describe I think of as 6/9 (which sometimes genarate my 'basic' pentatonics) chords and these would include the second over minor chords
But I really like you way of describing them and I can use my method of constantly comparing them to the sound of the chord (which I play as a drone every other bar) for further ear training and to get more sounds.
Also I have applied my method mainly to the seven modes of the major scale and I really like the idea of applying them to modes of harmonic and melodic minor as you suggest.
RE: Sweeping with the Pulgar? (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Interesting!
Building UP instead of the other way around!
Certainly very useful in jazz when one deals with continuously varying tonal centers - it's the idiom. There a many ways of dealing with those types of changes - think of any typical Wayne Shorter tune - changes gallore!
But when dealing with the more "folkish" types of music one comes to rely much upon simple modalities - Irish music, Flamenco, Ragas, Cuban Son, etc... it can be useful to set up a pool of tonal parameters (a key, a scale) before hand and simply invent (as in inventio) musical materials from there... grouping systems and ideas.... occasionally performing a temporary or passing modulation in order to throw the listener off, or your fellow musicians for that matter!
Anyway, all ways lead to Rome so they say....
Some build up , others down and, still others dig through.... there are times when everything inside or outside the book is needed... like when improvising.
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