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Question about ToddK Video
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Ricardo
Posts: 14867
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
Hey ToddK!
In the video where you play a C melodic minor scale over the F to E resolution in solea: how did you know that the C melodic minor scale would sound "exotic" and nice, and not some other scale? Is there a music theory basis to that? Or just because it sounded nice by chance?
Thanks!
I will answer for him if you like. The F chord in E phrygian sometimes functions as Dominant chord, and you can play a dominant 7th. F-A-C-Eb is the chord. So the corresponding MODE you could play in the key of solea, over the F chord, is called F LYDIAN. THe notes are FGABCDE in the F lydian scale. But if you want that dominant 7th sound, you change the E natural to Eb. That scale, FGABCDEb, is called F LYDIAN DOMINANT. Lydian dominant is really what Todd is using there. F lydian dominant is the 4TH MODE of C melodic minor (CDEbFGAB).
So he probably figured folks can relate to the related melodic minor scale easier than lydian dominant. Just a different way to name the same sounding notes. Thing to not confuse is the concept of MELODIC MINOR in this case, is not that same as it's usage in classical music, where one thinks of only ascending with that scale, and descending natural minor. The concept of melodic minor as a scale in jazz (or any improvisational music, like Indian or even flamenco) is that one can move in any direction with those notes.
Hope that makes some sense.
Ok, a more advanced concept as to what Todd was doing with that scale. The idea was to resolve to E phrygian right? So the V chord to E is B. So some jazz guys like to use SUPER LOCRIAN on the V chord. B superlocrian is again, the 7th mode of C melodic minor. So yet an other way to describe the same sound. OH yeah, the F chord was functioning as the tritone sub for the B chord!   
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Date Feb. 25 2008 7:27:42
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Ricardo
Posts: 14867
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
Oh my God! Is there anything you don't know, Ricardo? Obviously, you have these things memorized and ready to use / analyze when needed.
Problem is that I wasn't expecting such a complicated answer. I am very weak when it comes to theory compared to you, so I understood very little of what you just said. I'll try to re-read and try to figure this stuff out more, but at the moment, I have to go sleep and then it's off to pharmacology class ...
I NEED TO LEARN SOME THEORY!
PS: That ToddK fella must be one smart cookie!
OK sorry man. Basically, the answer is to your question if there was a theory behind it sounding exotic, the answer is YES! Whether or not that is the flamenco way is an other story. @ Romerito, Todd is versed in Jazz, for sure the ear comes into play, and the "jazz" connection I am talking about is "after the fact" analysis... PLUS, we are talking about improvising in a jazz way over the chords, not a specific falseta per say.
I just wanted to say that even though my answer seemed complex, the point I was trying to make is if you know your notes, it is really just ABCDEFG, but you change the "E" to Eb. That is all. Only one note really you need to "think" about altering from your normal sounding spanishy scale. Hope that makes more sense.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 25 2008 18:52:52
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n85ae
Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to rombsix)
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No point really - But, you can play the guitar "well", without theory if you have
the music in you, and the ability.
Theory alone cannot make you a better guitar player, and you can boggle your
brain trying to understand theory, and not get any better.
However, it certainly won't hurt to know theory, at least some basics.
I was one of those people that learned scale, modes, and chords, etc. then
decided, boy some of this stuff is just crap, and doesn't sound like music
at all! Plus my own playing still stinks!
So now I'm just trying to learn the darned guitars I have. :)
Jeff
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Date Feb. 26 2008 10:53:22
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to n85ae)
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quote:
tend to disagree, I think music is a magical something within. Theory can help
you expand on what you've got, but if you don't have the "stuff" built in, then
no amount of theory is going to bring it out. There's a lot of people who have
a LOT of the stuff built-in and are plenty musical without theory.
Theory is NOT music, it is a way to describe musical in a technical fashion, it
certainly doesn't hurt to know it, but isn't going to unlock the key to being
musical.
Ok - Theory is good. :) It's just not a magic blue pill.
Im extremely annoyed at this ignorant point of view.
We do have a naming convention/system for the 12 notes, but
thats not "Theory" The theory of music is something that just
exists naturally, like the periodic table of elements, etc
Wether you choose to ignore the structure or not, is up to you.
If you'd give it more time and focus, you would eventually see, that
it IS the magic blue pill.
The greats from De Lucia to Bach all know the "Theory" or "Building blocks"
of music. Wether it was innate, or learned externally, they know it.
Paco could tell you how to use lydian dominant over the V chord, he
just wouldnt use theoretical naming conventions. He would simply
play you the chord and the notes. Just because Paco doesnt know
the naming conventions, doesnt mean he doesnt understand theory.
The "DNA" of music. Its a system. Its physics.
The magic is in the listener, witnessing new interpretations/variations
of this system.
So indeed, one DOES need clearly understand the natural structure of
the 12 note system in order to create great works. Wether you do it
through conventional terminology, or you develop your own personal/innate
understanding of it, does not matter.
Wes Montgomery, the great jazz guitarist, was like Paco. He could not
communicate in technical terms. He knew the system innately, by ear.
He didnt need to know the naming conventions. He could navigate complex
changes,and add exotic harmony, going by his own personal system, which
he developed inside himself, just as Paco did.
I can 1000 percent absolutely garantee you, there are no great composers
whom are unaware of the theoretical structure of music. In one way or another.
TK
_____________________________
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Date Feb. 26 2008 12:31:36
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to ToddK)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
I can 1000 percent absolutely garantee you, there are no great composers
whom are unaware of the theoretical structure of music. In one way or another.
TK
I agree Todd. Saying that people who compose music dont understand music theory is like saying that people who cant read and write don't understand the language they are speaking.
But why so annoyed Todd ? I was more annoyed by Jeff's claim that he learned more from the other kids than from his guitar teacher. As someone who sees nine year old girls consistantly playng better clearer more rhythmically and more musically,on one hours practice a week, than sixteen year old macho guitar enthusiasts who have been playing for years longer. Most of these idiots the image and the attitude and practice like demons. But they go round in circles feeding off each others bad habits and are too stupid to listen to me or even themselves because they have too many unresolved father issues. They learn a tune from some cool band and it sounds like s@it, you ask them to sing it to you because what they played made no sense and the bloody idiots think that you don't get it because your not cool enough. You ask for the music and they show you some amatuer tab produced on microsoft word that is clearly nothing like what any recording band would have played. Then they cant sing it (beacuse they dont have a clear enough picture in theyr head of how it goes) but claim that they don't want to or cant sing, because they are too cool. Sometimes they sing something and you play it back to them note for note and they say you did it wrong. Dip@hits !! And they dont like theory, they know dozens of songs and therefore maybe a dozen or so chords but they don't know any of the names of the chords so they have to learn them over and over with each new piece that they learn. And they cant write a song that isn't verbatum a song from a band they listen to, and they only know a pentatonic scale (yup minor pentatonic fifth position)
And they learn more from their friends than from me, yup they learn how to pretend to be a guitarist and mangle the simplest of riffs (bloody hell do they actually ever listen to Voodo Chile ?)
But they are sure in their heart that they know better than me..... still, they grow out of that ..........dont they ?
Well there you go a rant. So I suppose Todd I am with you as all this I'm cool because I dont understand, I have more Duende because I don't understand nonsense really gets on my tits.
D
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Date Feb. 26 2008 13:02:33
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to cathulu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
Does the theory of music exist naturally or is it an anthropomorphic construct. I know the periodic table of elements are independent of a human reference point, but not music. An alien would recognize hydrogen for sure... ergo music does not exist naturally.
Music is just an approximation of human language with similar rules and constructs - i.e. the grammer of music.
I got to disagree there Cathulu the Periodic table only existed when a chemist decided that there must be a way of organising the known elements in a way which was useful FOR HIM, and since chemists are judged by the consistancy of their results many, and then all, followed him.
In some ways the periodic table is arbitrary and only seems objective because it has stood the test of time. The universe did not let out a satisfied 'AAHH' when it was written down, it didn't care.
Theory is alway a human invention, it is judged by it's usefuleness and constantly undergoes refinement.
Music is a human activity but the tools that we use to analyse it are theories like any others, to be refined, clarified, applied to new situations and occasionally superceded by new ones. These theories are explanations of phenomena, not the phenomena themselves just like your periodic table. Since they are explanations they are an element of conversations between humans and nessecarily NOT natural phenomena.
This is also the case with grammer, spelling, pronunciation, diction ......
D.
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Date Feb. 26 2008 13:15:50
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n85ae
Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
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RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to ToddK)
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Todd -
quote:
Im extremely annoyed at this ignorant point of view.
Great! I feel my mission in life is to do that. (annoy ToddK that is, it's
a dirty job but somebody has to be up for it) That's why I post to the
forum. :)
Actually I'd say your response is the ignorant point of view, because you
fail to recognize, what you in fact yourself have which many other people
do not. You have a basic sense of music, which exists within you. Clearly
it is enhanced by your understanding of theory. Even more so by your
countless hours of tutelage, and practice. However that thing that you
have inside which I'll call your "musicality", is NOT something that everybody
was gifted with. I'm not.
I'll tell you what, why don't you spend the next year reading about aerodynamics,
and flight regulations. Take your time. Then you'll have theory. We'll go out in my
plane and I'll hand you the controls. You would feel quite lost. Ok so we'll do some
flight training, in fact we can do a lot of flight training. At the end you may or may
not make a good pilot? There are many people who do exactly what I describe,
and are lousy pilots. The reason is that they do not have an innate sense of
feel for the airplane. That comes from within. It is not something that you can
measure or quantify, nor can it be taught. It can be brought out through training
if it is there.
I used to fly with a guy on occasion as his safety pilot while he was maintaining
his instrument proficiency. He was exceedingly well versed in theory, and
technique, however he was a dangerous pilot. Because he did not have a feel
for the plane, after I flew with him for a while I just came to realize he simply
did not have it. So I finally stopped flying with him.
Ok being a guitar player is not the same thing, but the what I'm saying is
relevant.
You Todd are an excellent guitar player, and because of that you simply don't
get it. You think that theory, and proper practice would make just anybody a
great musician. It isn't so. You think so because for you it probably unlocked
the musicality that was within you. It won't unlock that for everybody.
I love playing guitar, and I have studied some music theory, and can apply what,
I have learned but that doesn't make me a good guitar player. Much to my chagrin
in fact I'm just a guy that plays guitar, fairly. But I enjoy it immensely, and that is
far more important.
There are things I am good at, so I can be humble about my guitar playing. It
is what it is.
Jeff
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Date Feb. 26 2008 13:46:42
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