RE: Question about ToddK Video

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Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to ToddK)

There's quite a lot to this discussion and I would have to spend quite a bit of time writing to summarize my thoughts on this topic, so I’ll just add this.

A basic aspect of the physics part should be easy for guitar players to comprehend. Pythagoras realized that the note directly at (our 12th fret) and above (its harmonic) the center of a bisected string were both the same note and he also understood the other harmonics generated on a string. I think the modes were named after the Greek city states because of these early developments and their association with Pythagoras.

Like our system of music notation the Western system of music theory doesn’t work very well and has numerous flaws which should be apparent to even a novice learning theory. (It is noteworthy that most music for guitar includes tablature as well as traditional music notation—the latter of which is a derivation of a system similar to tablature, i. e., a diagram based on a stringed instrument. There have been significant developments during the last 50 years in the area of music notation for guitar and it appears that tab and the traditional musical notation tell a more complete story and do so more efficiently than either viewed alone)

The one flaw—of course there are many others--that I’m thinking of is the I-IV-V progression in rock, blues, and folk music, etc. and the use of the Dorian mode as the preferred scale. This doesn’t make sense to me on paper according to Western music theory even though it does sound correct to me when I hear and play it. This common usage of a minor scale played over a chord progression consisting of major chords makes me wonder about music theory being innate. It seems more likely that ear training as a form of enculturation is a critical aspect in this phenomenon.

I understand how important music theory is—I’d be lost without it—but I have to wonder about any a priori assertions regarding it as being innate. I think that so much of it has to do with ear training and whatever developmental outcome variations are possible as a function of exposure and the likely correlative alterations of the brain that occur via neuroplasticity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 14:46:47

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to rombsix)

David -

Am I being a jerk? Simply because I disagree with what makes a person
musical OR was it my response to Todd's post where he call's me extremely
ignorant?

Likely the second. Ok so here's my response.

Amusement. :)

How's that? Too honest?

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 14:50:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

Music works real well for guitar, but only when you can read it. You cannot as is plain from you post. Sorry if that seems rude. Put simply it is like this, most guitarists are too lazy to learn to read music. People who want to sell magazines to as many people as possible have encouraged the view that TAB is an advantage for a player. It is not. Sunny delight is not an improvement on orange juice.

As towards theory in music, bassically theory should work. It is like this; chemistry does not help much with mechanical problems. Not because it is not innate and not because it is flawed particularly. Chemistry has theories which are more suited to solving chemical problems. For solving problems in mechanics best use physics.

For looking at the theory of flamenco you best not expect that you will nessecarily find the answer in a jazz book. Nor will dorian melodies be very well explained by classical harmony. Not because classical harmonic theory is wrong but because it is designed to explain western art music composed in the classical period which was not tremedously influenced folk music of the pre enlightenment.

Now if you want to understand chemistry a bit of physics and maths and biology is useful..... ESPECIALLY IF YOU CAN READ.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:18:20

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to n85ae)

You are right Jeff, rudeness is cool.

I so admire you honesty, and your enlightened views they give me SO MUCH to think about !

I look forward to your next instructive rejoinder. Maybe along the lines of 'some people are only three feet tall, how can running practice improve my basketball playing ?'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:22:15

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

David -

Okay fair enough, don't make me resort to profanity. :)

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:24:29

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Elements exist, they are recognizable throught the universe. Hydrogen is throughout the universe for example.

Sound is molecules moving in a fluid medium a certain way. Tones are just frequencies of sound - base frequency and harmonics.

Humans organize tones in pleasing ways. However, if humans did not exist, nor would these pleasing combinations of tones (at least to a human's ears anyways).

If you have no ears you cannot hear music. If you are in a vacuum you cannot hear music.

That is what I meant by natural - elements exist and are natural. Things made out of elements are natural. The periodic table is just organizing the known elements by weight and properties. Some other intelligence might organize otherwise and name them otherwise, but there would be no disagreement about the existence of an element with one electron and one proton.

Of course tones organized in pleasing ways is a part of our natural environment when we play them. Without us music would not exist. Hence you can argue it is not natural.

That is all I meant. Indeed I wonder if intelligence to is not natural and breaks the laws of entropy. Getting a bit metaphysical I think now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:28:00

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

Looking at your post again PGH I must congratulate you on your use of english. It puts such a polish on half truths and mumbo jumbo. It really was excelllent flimflammery.

I fear however that commenting knowledgeably may require more than dressing up half learned cliches in pseudo intellectual language.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:34:30

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to cathulu)

Right Cathulu. We live in a physical universe,everything that happens is in scientific terms, natural since nature is everthing that happens in our universe.

If humans didn't exist these pleasing combination of tones certainly would, birds sing or haven't you noticed. Also harmonic resonance and interference are a fundamental part of mechanics and the movement of heavenly bodies.

It is quite possible that an intelligence alien to ours could well NOT consider the proton to be a building block, perhaps some difference in their evolution would lead their theorising along totally different paths, perhaps taking a shortcut to a level of knowledge far beyond or own. Or perhaps there is not alien intelligence.

If the fact that our brains seem to increase in complexity then that does not make them supernatural since physical phenomena are the yardstick by which we measure our theories. To put it another way our understanding of entropy must evolve to encompass as many problems as possible.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 15:46:39

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Lookiing at your post again guitarbuddha I must...

FYI harmonic resonance and interference have nothing to do with the movement of heavenly bodies. That is governed by General Relativity.

Monkeys grunt, lions roar and dogs bark and I don't find that musical.

An intellient alien would recognize hydrogen, believe me, for I speak to them regularly. Indeed my aluminum foil helmet is picking-up a message right now! Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 16:24:49

Escribano

Posts: 6418
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Question about ToddK Video (in reply to cathulu) 1 votes

Umm, relativism versus absolutism. I am in the latter camp, but I can appreciate the argument that "musical" to one culture is not to another.

Keep it clean please.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 26 2008 16:47:49