Cante and Toque Simultaneously

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rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Cante and Toque Simultaneously

Hola,

This is something that I've wondered about for long, and that has caused me difficulties.

1- Are there any famous flamencos that play and sing at the same time (i.e. that accompany themselves), but not with simple rumbas, yet rather complicated stuff like bulerias or others? Ya3ni, is it possible for example if a cantaor that was a master at guitar-work to sing and accompany himself with complicated falsetas etc. and end up sounding like a combination of a cantaor and guitarist?

2- Do any of you have the same difficulty I have when trying to play something complicated and singing at the same time (not necessarily flamenco)? I just can't do both at the same time. I guess it's the same problem that causes my foot-tapping to go way off when I try to do that while playing bulerias (I mean, I can tap my foot well to tangos, or soleares ... but bulerias mixes me up so I either screw up the playing or the tapping).

3- How do you normally tap your foot to bulerias? On the accents? or just alternating eighth notes? (i.e down up down up down up all throughout).

Muchas gracias!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 19:21:58

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

Hi!
Camaron por bulerias:

I love his smile at 3.30.
Matic

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vengo de los san migueles
si no me caso este año que yo
me caso el año que viene

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 19:56:20

stephen hill

Posts: 300
Joined: Feb. 16 2004
From: La Herradura, Granada, Spain

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

I know a great player called ricardo de la juana here in almunecar , andalucia. he playes and sings to a very high level. amazing. will post vid soon

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stephen hill - granada spain
http://www.spanishguitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 20:34:01

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to Matic)

Hey Matic,

I've already seen that vid. Camaron is not playing difficult stuff. It's just very basic chords. I was referring to someone playing PDL-level falsetas and accompanying himself as well. I doubt that can happen; I think the brain gets overloaded. I'll be waiting for Stephen's vid however to prove me wrong (and make my day!).

THANKS for the quick reply.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 21:15:23

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1896
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

3- How do you normally tap your foot to bulerias? On the accents? or just alternating eighth notes? (i.e down up down up down up all throughout).

i have no problem counting/tapping any accents - but Paco's tapping of 2-3s i just can't do no matter how hard i try...but mostly i tend to go with the melody, alternating between tapping normal bulerías compás, 123 123 123 123, and occasionaly just 123456 123456

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 21:32:24

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I was referring to someone playing PDL-level falsetas and accompanying himself as well.

Hmm...yes, I understand what you mean.
But does this actually matter?
I mean, normally when a cantaor is singing, a tocaor isn't playing (complicated) falsetas but compas (chords). Falsetas are meant to be played solo, while the singer isn't singing. Between letras.
So, if PdL had sung, he wouldn't have done it while playing his complicated stuff.

To accompany high level, you don't even need any falsetas. (imo)

I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. And correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Cheers,M

_____________________________

vengo de los san migueles
si no me caso este año que yo
me caso el año que viene

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2007 21:48:03

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

I asked the same question awhile back and here is Ricardo's answer:

"You will see it often for the fun party numbers, Rumba, sevillanas, tangos, bulerias, perhaps even alegrias. But for the serious stuff, it is hard for a singer to accompany himself/herself. Something will always lose out, either a good accompanyment or the singing. In rito y geografia, I remember a guy accompanying himself por solea, but I can't remember who. I will check. I bet in the old days, that was the way.

Ricardo"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 1:32:02

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Hey xirdneH_imiJ,

First off, what is that PDL tapping that you're referring to? Secondly, did you always not have a problem tapping bulerias? i.e. did you do that correctly and easily the first time you tried? or did you practice and get it to work?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 8:59:40

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to Matic)

Hey Matic,

You are right that the complex stuff does not always get played DURING the actual singing, but still, have you seen someone use normal compas chords (with little variation) while singing and then blasting off superb falsetas between letras? If so, then that would be what I'm looking for ...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 9:01:56

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1896
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

with PdL tapping i mean 123123123123 or 121234567891011...
tapping or understanding the rhythm was not very difficult because i listened to lots of music and even i practice clapping while driving a car, it was Faucher's way of writing tab for Bulerías which took a lot of time getting used to...
before i listened to lots of flamenco of course i had no idea about the whole thing and it confused me a lot...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 9:15:02

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

This kind of tapping is one of the biggest fary-tales in flamenco. some people say, if yoi cant do it while playing bulerias, you didnt untertand it.
I saw many players who demonstrated me how good they tap this paco-tap. They did it ok, but they payed allways the same compas. When you have to concentrate more on the compas than on the stuff you are playing, than its useless. If you wtch other pro playes on stage. Less than 1% perform tis tapping.

Paco himself dont use it much today. #his tapping looks strange and confusing while playing bulerias today. I think he invented it when he was young and wild. #the time when you needed a crazy fast long picados to impress or compensate a small dick. Well.. its not very usefull IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 10:13:31

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

I see the tapping just as a consequence of feeling the rythm and music and if it isn't spontaneous but forced (because almighty Paco once did it) it's pointless.
First feel the music and let it carry you away...then look at your foot, and I bet you'll be surprised.
Matic

_____________________________

vengo de los san migueles
si no me caso este año que yo
me caso el año que viene

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 10:19:44

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

Hey xirdneH_imiJ,

You must REALLY love flamenco considering you are willing to put your life on the line by clapping when driving your car!!!!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 13:09:36

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

When I saw a video of paco playiing from around the time of Almoraima I wondered why he taps his foot like that. I came to the conclusion that he must have gotten great benefit from the discipline.
I now practice like this all of the time. It really helpls to tighten up syncopations and changes accent and phrasing in interesting ways. The key is to learn it straight away with the falseta putting it all together from the beginning at maybe 60bpm one bar at a time.

Another great thing is to play everything that you know with these foottaps and playalong with a palmas track. I use Intervideo WinDvd player which will play mp3 at between 50 and 200 percent of the original speed.

I posted some footage of me doing this a few months ago but noone seemed very interested. The pieces were a bach Menuett and Prelude in E, Las Abejas by Barrios, Recuerdo de la Alahambra Lauro's Natali and, just in case Impetu. If you know the pieces then you will know that they all have very distinct time feels and are in fact in different time signatures. I used the same playalong at the same speed for all the recordings. There are IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT IT lots of very good reasons to do this. For any musician interested in rhythm this kind of polyrhythmic practice is extremely enlightening.

I do all of my technical excercises with the playalong and pacos foottaps. Sometimes I tap what I percieve to be the first beat in the bar with my left foot, this will be different for every falseta. I start as slow as I can and increase the speed in five percent increments until I get to around 280 then roll back to a sensible 240.

If you just TRY to do it but dont do the work then it wont do much for you. But if you want to know if it works look at Paco. Did it work ?

The reason he doesn't do it now is that it is very bloody tiring and he is not so young. But the foot tapping he does now is perfectly straightforward to follow. He uses the double taps when he feels like, When he doesnt he either taps on the first beat of each short bar ( two or three beat bars ) or he taps on 12,3,7,8 and 10 ( Nunez does a lot of this ) this is practically the same as tapping on the first beat of every bar for the basic traditional five main beats bulerias compass but enhances the greater speed (downbeats every two not three beats ) of the secong half of the compas by puting in the little skip between seven and eight.

When I practice Alegrias and Solea I use the same foot tapping as for buleria because it reaps the same rewards as in Buleria. It is also great if you can get someone to practice palmas together with you and take turns at clapping on and off the beat with you but tapping your feet together.

When you play very contrapuntal music ( like Bach fugues ) you have to decide which line is most important and focus on that because that is how you guide your listener and shape your performance. A player with enough discipline could do this and also sing along because they would tackle it systematically but it would really make no sense to have a busy voice and a busy guitar at the same time. If there were two people then the guitarist would cause offense by playing over the singer and the audience would be confused as to where their attention should be and they would become emotionally detached from the performance.

What it is good to do though is to sing and african cowbell part over everything that you play and this will do wonderful things to your awareness and rhythmic tightness. For example I practice tremolo ( five note ) recite the bell part and tap down beats with my left foot whilst doing paco tapping my right. The tremolo bass notes are out of phase with the foottaps and it is very difficult to continue paying attention to the recording. But if you can do this then your compas will be incredibly stronger after.

Noone who has earnestly done this would be in any doubt as to wether or not the time spent was worthwhile.

David

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2007 13:47:59

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to rombsix)

It could be that I don't understand because I am very tired, but what is an african cowbell part?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2007 9:06:42

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Cante and Toque Simultaneously (in reply to Georg)

Sorry G I went off on one there (again). To keep the band together in many styles of African drumming they play a repeating very heavily suyncopated pattern which takes a whole bar or two to repeat, This is played on the cow bell. I really has the same function as the clave. In afro-cuban music they use the cascada rhythm in the same way ( it is often memorised with the words I dont like carrots I like tomatoes ). The excercises I described took me years to devise and be able to perform and I am sorry that even in one of my longer and more boring posts I didnt manage to explain them.

A good description of the cowbell patterns and a wide variety of world rhythms can be found in most of the publications on hand drumming by my friend Al Dworsky which I see in most music stores. I'll let yet you all know if he ever gets round to the Cajon.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2007 16:16:50