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cooked my sides
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ernandez R
Posts: 743
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: cooked my sides (in reply to Stu)
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Foto of the jig, heating element, and sides. A short discreption of your process, dwell times etc too. I cooked a few here and there on the pipe but mostly on the inside of the upper bought. I've sence made up a side bender using a touch of Anders here and a bit of Paublo R. there, 250wt IR bulbs... So far no smoke. I always told my minions in the shop: this is not a wood burning class ;) I did drill a few holes in the side bender to slide in a couple meat thermometers to get an idea of the temps, not exact but more of a baseline to use from one cook to the next. I keep notes also and keep them with the bending jig. Forgot to add, I wet the wood as required and then wrap with parchment paper stollen from the Boss's bakery whilst her back is turned ;) I've had the brown paper brown just a little more. I listen for the sizzle and while keeping notes on the time which I have sence used to repeat with successes. HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor. www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Oct. 22 2020 2:54:38
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: cooked my sides (in reply to Stu)
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Hi Stu. Pictures really would help, or a more detailed description of your setup and what you did, also what type of wood you were bending. If it was cypress, it can stain from the water/steam when the wet wood is heated. Basically, resins mix with the water and burn and then settle back onto the wood when the water evaporates. The stain will be dark brown and can look like a burn, but it’s really a stain. This generally can be sanded out without too much effort. Of course, it can also be a burn, but even if so, it often won’t go too deep and can still be sanded out. That you cooked the bouts instead of the waist makes me think you might have made a sandwich out of the spring steel, blanket, and side and then held it firm at each end with clothespins or small clamps to be able to put it all into the form without stuff moving around too much. If you then turned on the blanket without releasing the ends, the bouts would be cooking away while the waist was being clamped down. The solution to that is to start clamping the waist and, once it is secure, release the end clamps on the sandwich and let the bottom spring steel and blanket portion of the sandwich fall away from the side. Once the waist is 70-80% formed, start bringing the sides into play, slowly, gently, but with some haste, and alternate completing the waist clamping with forming the bouts until the bouts are fully down. Leave the last 5% or so of the waist until last, that way the final waist clamping will pull any portion of the bouts that may have risen off the form back snug onto it. If the sides are soaked and wrapped in foil then try lowering the heat, as well. The temperatures sometimes suggested online can be pretty high. If you’re careful, you should be able to get the whole thing done without exceeding 280-290F. Just be gentle, but also don’t linger. Parchment can also be used instead of foil. I think the idea there is to aid evaporation. Some forms use perforated spring steel, also for that purpose. Then you can get a nice polka-dot pattern cooked into the cypress..which, of course, is muy flamenco.
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Date Oct. 22 2020 16:56:46
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: cooked my sides (in reply to Stu)
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Stu, I can almost guarantee you that that will sand out. I’ve seen a lot worse go away without too much wood loss. On your picture of the inside of the bout, I believe the large dark area is a burn, but at the edge there’s a more yellowish discolouration that is likely a stain. Jason, I do soak my sides, generally for about five minutes, depending on the wood. I’ve used parchment, but mostly use tin foil to wrap them. Once bent, I remove the side from the foil and return it to the mold with a sandwich of one spring steel sheet on the bottom, then the blanket, then a sheet of parchment, then the bare side. I bring that up to 240F, then immediately down to 220F and let it sit for a few minutes until I feel the wood is nice and dry, then shut off the heat and let it sit for a good hour or so after that. Even doing that I’ll still get some cupping around the waist area that needs to be sanded out. Not always, but more often than not. I started soaking because I cracked some sides when doing it with just a misting. But there are plenty of makers who swear no more than a misting is needed and some who say it can be done dry. My first teacher (who’s made over 1000 guitars) advocates soaking, while my second advocated misting. They both make great guitars, so I don’t think there’s one magic solution to this.
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Date Oct. 23 2020 15:38:25
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RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: cooked my sides (in reply to Stu)
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If the burn is extremely deep the sides should be scrapped. You can save them and repurpose the wood, however. For instance, if you were to put in a soundport you already have some prebent side material that can be laminated to the inside of the port area of the bout for strength, etc... But, remember, some of the old guitars can have what are considered to be extremely thin sides by today’s standards, and they’ve survived. I still think you’ll be OK, it really doesn’t look that bad. If that were me, I’d probably clean up the inside and build with it, then clean the outside up when doing the cleanup of the box after assembly. But it’s good to actually handle the wood before making such a decision, so it’s prudent to advise a full cleanup, just to be safe.
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Date Oct. 23 2020 16:31:49
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ernandez R
Posts: 743
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: cooked my sides (in reply to Stu)
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Stu, Couple more notes: The last Pauble R. video I saw had him pulling both boughts down and the waist last. Was on an Instagram post not too long ago. About these sides, scrape or sand and use, or save them for later and when you are ready to build that 900gm 1mm thick sided Torres style lightweight. Keep in mind the temp Sensing element of your device is not telling you how hot the whole sandwich is. Just lower the thermostat about 50-75f ( sorry for the yank units) and listen for the sizzle of the water. If your hear the water sizzling you know you are over 200f. And calibrate accordingly: it's a balance of tempature, tempeture rise rate, and dwell time. I let mine cool down completely, then I do a second cook to set the wood but with less of a dwell time, then I leave the wood in the jig for 24 vary, vary long hours. Lutherie is teaching me patience, the main skill I lack :/ HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor. www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Oct. 23 2020 21:36:40
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