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Condemania
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Ricardo
Posts: 14884
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Condemania (in reply to estebanana)
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Sobrinos de esteso was well known and popular amongst flamencos since N. Ricardo's day. The model is a standard for players that accompany. Watch Rito y geografia del cante, and try to count all the condes. It was not because Paco also used one, vice versa. he used em cuz his brother dad collegues and idols also used em. They are perfect guitars for flamenco, dry and cutting, low bridge, etc. Most pro players understand why. The modern conde was a pretty good copy of the old model. I own both and like both guitars equally. Only reason I might prefer the old one is because, well, it's old and feels collectable. But the Condes from the 90's and early 2000's were not bad and seemed to make even some older players happy. Regardless who built em, they were good guitars that held up to standards of old esteso design, and therefore the prices skyrocketed. I have played a few newer condes that were really not the same as the ones I own or have played that were good, but in general they are usually good instruments. There are many other makers that are good too don't get me wrong, but whenever I play another make for a while, returning to the conde is like coming home. I am sure the reason for popularity amongst other professional players is the same. I feel that since I have encountered the internet world, I have had to defend condes way more than in the real working world. I can understand buying a guitar for hype, that being paco de lucia uses one. But I can't understand the general dislike of condes by amature players and builders. It is as if they all believe that the fine players posses only the few "good ones" that could possibly exist. The truth is, there are fine players that use instruments that many guitar connoisseurs and builders would consider "mcCondes"....for reasons that escape them because they don't play. Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 21 2009 17:06:52
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Condemania (in reply to estebanana)
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The Conde history is very old and they have been buying guitars from outside for decades. In the 60th they bought from now very well known Granada builders like Bellido and Marín Montero. Later on they have turned to Valencia and now its ???? This is not just a Conde history but very typical in all of Spain. ramirez and Contreras do the same and a lot of others. Also a lot of shops in Spain buy guitars from outside and put their own label into them (Student models). Examples are Bellido in Granada and Postigo in Sevilla. So you could say that its a Spanish way of doing things. I´m pretty sure its against EU consumer laws but noone seems to care. Back to Condes: Looking at history, its THE flamenco guitar and a reference point, or let me say, it was so. I agree with Ricardo, Older Condes are good, but the ones that I´ve tried from the last 7 - 8 years, have been really dull and with lack of expression. The good ones have their characteristics and their followers. They have this conde sound which is very easy to recognize. They work very well on stage and with microphones. Also they tend to be hard in the right hand and they like a lot to have new strings on. Its not my personal guitar sound but I understand and accept that we are all different. Condes are being played by many pro´s but not like in the 60th 70th and 80th. In general, many players have found out that there are MANY other guitar makers nowadays which are better and cheaper. I went to a concert in November. (Tomatito, P. Habichuela, Rodriguez, Sanlicar, M.A. Cortéz, and many others) Noone played a Conde..... That was pretty interesting. I dont hate Condes guitars. some I even like, I dont like their business policy and I think they should be stopped and told to put the name of the real builder on their label. Anders
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Date Dec. 22 2009 0:52:13
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estebanana
Posts: 9379
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Condemania (in reply to estebanana)
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Interesting stuff. I think Anders point about a Conde working well with a microphone is salient. I think it's because they are a fundamental guitar as opposed to an overtone guitar. They don't shine with overtones, they are what I would characterize as "breathy". The fundamental note, especially the basses, decay quickly and are less supported by the overtones. Makes for a sonically flat, windy guitar. Easier to control with a microphone in comparison to hotter guitars with more overtones appearing in the spectrum. At least that's been my that's my observation over the years. Not saying all Conde's lack overtones, I've just noticed the recent ones are rather dull. It's curious that there's almost a formula to create this kind of flat breathy sound. Almost all the Conde and Conde clones I have seen have a five fan system which calls for the fans to be spread wide apart and stationed in a mostly parallel manner. That coupled with a low light bridge which is slightly sprung into the top. ( the top is left a little slack so it's not so prone to activate overtones) It's like a recipe. I suppose if there is any continuity between "Conde's" made by different people in different places it seems top come from this method of structure. As for Paco's family playing them being reason enough to get one; brand loyalty is both a trap and a security. It's nice to have the 0ld Reliable under your arm, but brand loyalty can also be another name for covered ears. I've learned a lot from looking a listening to Conde's but I think there are enough of them out there that there are other sounds to go after. I do wish I owned a signed Media Luna by Faustino, but that's only to ensure there will be some extra college money for the possible future offspring. I used to have a Conde, but I sold it. It was a good guitar and it was not a media luna. However it was better than almost all the media lunas I had run across, except for a few from the 70's and the ones built by Faustino himself. It was not my guitar, as they say, and I needed money so I let it go. It was with much anguish and some amusement that I encountered this phenomena so common with Conde guitars; Those who asked to buy it wanted to compare it to the media luna and use the fact that it had a second tier headstock as a reason to devalue the guitar. "If that guitar had a media luna", they would tell me, "with that great sound it would be worth 5000.00 more dollars." This baffled me because it was clear to all that the sound was superior even though it was commercially a second class class guitar, cuadro wise it was a top flight instrument. It had all the qualities in spades to be a top accompaniment guitar, but the potential buyers fixated on the headstock without listening to what the guitar was doing. The other thing that was magical about this particular guitar, which I don't always find a characteristic of Conde, is that it had carrying power. The guitar had that strange and rare mix of breathy bass coupled with overtone support to make the sound project clear and far. I think about that guitar sometimes, but I've come to realize I don't really miss it. In the biblical sense I covet my friends 2000 Barba. And that is another story.
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Date Dec. 22 2009 8:33:04
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Ricardo
Posts: 14884
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Condemania (in reply to Morao)
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quote:
Why didn´t they build the "conde" guitar for there own when all players wan´t that "conde sound". Isn´it in fact so, that Conde Hermanos buy the instruments from other builders for example 3000 Euro and sell them for 8000? There are no public made "facts", but I would tend to go along with that conjecture. I have examined many of both guitars and compared them. The bracing is not the same always. But even Sobrinos de Esteso did not use the same bracing. Could be Sanchis or someone in Valencia was always making some condes and this "faustino the only good builder" is the true hype. In recent years many pros have gone for Sanchis after all, since they sound good and are cheap and feel about the same as Condes. I personally notice a difference in sound and don't understand why they don't build say their negras with the same cutting mid tones as ones they supposedly build for conde??? I have no idea what they might pay to have them built....could be much less than 3k per instrument. About the Sobrinos with media luna vs not. That is pure cosmetics but it does matter to buyers unfortunately. Players don't care as much unless they are also collecting guitars. Back then it meant nothing, but the modern condes are distinguished by the head design....it is understood that Media luna are "A" models and the M. Ramirez design are "B" models. That has carried over to old guitars unfairly. About the collectablitly of Sobrinos de esteso guitars, even good condition ones are not like Reyes or even Gerundino etc. They are usually priced 5-7K and don't go for more unless the owner just won't let it go. If you want one, one will pop up at somepoint and should be going for that price range. There were a lot of those made back then....more than Faustino could have made himself. J RAmirez III was pretty open about the concept of having people make guitars to HIS plan. He had no problem with it and considered guitar building a science and trusted that with his model others could build a guitar like his....so long as they have been trained to his method. Simply copying the plan was not enough, but the idea of Conde's doing the same thing, contracting out, is not so crazy. About Paco hype, one more interesting thing was in Rito y Geografia, you see him playing Ramirez not Conde like everyone else, so it was never like he was "loyal" to the maker.
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CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 22 2009 9:56:18
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Morao
Posts: 81
Joined: Jan. 8 2009
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RE: Condemania (in reply to estebanana)
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Last time I played a very good Media Luna from Felipe V in a guitar shop. They only sell flamenco guitars and I´ve tested about 20-30 guitars that day. Gerundino, Reyes, Barba, Manzanero, etc. I will always wan´t to learn something about flamenco guitars, their sound, the builders etc. I try to play as many different guitars as possible. Now I can´t buy a better guitar. But when I will have enough money (maybe never... ) I wan´t to know which guitar suits for me... Ok, anyway, the shop dealer told me, that it´s very hard to find a good Conde in their shops. But this one was so incredible fast and agressive, a real macho guitar... After playing this guitar I could understand why so many people like these guitars. But it´s in no case a guitar for me. I prefer another sound, and another price...
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Date Dec. 22 2009 13:28:48
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3433
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Condemania (in reply to Ricardo)
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One element of Conde popularity in flamenco has not been mentioned here. In the 1960s through the early 1990s I worked in Europe a fair amount. I stopped off in Madrid on the way home and would visit the guitar shops: Ramirez, Contreras, Manzanero, Bernabe, Camacho, Rozas while he had his own shop, and Conde. All but one made both classical and flamenco guitars, and sold them and factory guitars at a variety of price points. Camacho was alone in not making flamenco guitars or selling factory guitars. At all but the Conde shop, the clientele tended to be well dressed, well spoken and musically literate. At the Conde shop at Gravina 7 a sizable portion of the clientele were clearly Gypsies, some not very well dressed or well spoken. At the Conde shop these people were treated with respect, and clearly felt at home. I never saw anyone at the other shops who fit the profile. I have no idea how this came about. Did the Gypsies gravitate to the Conde shop because of the guitars? Or did the Gypsies gravitate to the guitars because they were treated well at the Conde shop? Bear in mind that throughout the Franco dictatorship, both Gypsies and flamenco were officially looked down upon. At the club Zambra in the'50s and '60s, with the magnificent team of Rafael Romero "El Gallina" and Perico El del Lunar, the crowd had quite a few pipe smoking intellectuals in their tweed jackets and horn rimmed glasses, with their dates in sensible shoes, plaid skirts and cardigans. Aficion for flamenco was a form of protest against Fascist repression. RNJ
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Date Sep. 18 2013 16:46:30
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