Accompanying cante and baile

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rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Accompanying cante and baile

Hello mates,

This question has probably been asked millions of times.

I learned most of my flamenco from the Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso series. Then I learned bit by bit from here and there online about specifics of certain palos. Is there a "Paso a Paso series for cante and for baile" out there somewhere?

Thing is, there's been a couple of baile workshops in Lebanon the past few, and I'd been too busy with exams to try and accompany. The organizer probably got pissed off at me because I say I want to every time, then I back out due to studies. They now play CDs instead.

I was thinking of really trying this time. This got me wondering as last time I communicated partly with the dancer to be giving the workshop, and asked, "Mate, I don't really know how to accompany baile. I never have. Can you TELL me what to do on guitar, and I'll actually execute that, and have it work out?" To which he replied, "Yes. Just show up, and we'll make it work."

So, do dancers usually KNOW what should be played on guitar? Will they know how to explain what should be done (in terms of escobillas, salidas, llamadas, etc.) without themselves being tocaors?

Gracias!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 9:08:44

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:33:41

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 9:33:33

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

Jason says it's not good.

I trust the maestro. I probably need to dig into his website first, and if I still feel like a complete newbie afterward, I guess I'll continue prowling for more. Just in case though, does anyone have any resources as well? Thank you Abe.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 9:56:20

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:33:35

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 10:15:53

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

the only resource are youtube videos really...and he's right, you show up and make it work, it's very unlikely that a dancer would be able to explain what should be played...they know what they want to hear, but at first we don't speak the same language...accompanying dance is very much about your instincts, at first you improvise and try to make your stuff work with the rhythm they're making with their feet...it's often all counter beats, so you have to concentrate much in order to stay in compás...of course if there's palmas it's easier...
but good news is that it gets better every time and it'll become second nature to you...of course forget falsetas that you can't reproduce loudly and with much confidence...

edit: i remember Jason having accompaniment videos on his site, with and without guitar, so it's very much worth checking out, it's the only usable resource i know of...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 11:04:42

Schalli

Posts: 94
Joined: Sep. 15 2010
From: Mannheim, Germany

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

So, do dancers usually KNOW what should be played on guitar? Will they know how to explain what should be done (in terms of escobillas, salidas, llamadas, etc.) without themselves being tocaors?

Hi Rombsix.
I would say this depends heavily on how experienced the dancers are... I accompany a Solea Beginners Course here in Mannheim together with my Guitarteacher, and my impression is that only my teacher and the Danceteacher know what should be played. I think many (beginner)dancers would even run down their programm if you would play totally random, as long as you've got the compas of course. Maybe they would not even recognize :-(
But i think/hope thats different with more experienced dancers ;-)

Main thinks to accompany Baile can be found in Books, escobilla, llamada... the main challenge is to raise the tempo exactly like the dancer does...
I think its much harder to accompany cante...? or at least for me ;-) But I'm a beginner in accompaneing, too...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 11:11:49

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

edit: i remember Jason having accompaniment videos on his site, with and without guitar, so it's very much worth checking out, it's the only usable resource i know of...

Surely. I just always like to get as much background about something before I start working on it.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 14:07:52

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Hey Romb, I say just give it a go! With all You know You definetly will get it working!

Just get into it, and it gonna get better every time. Otherwise when You'll feel You're ready to go? When You've learned to accompany without a dancer/singer? Then You may have preconceptions that may came out wrong, and You have to start right from the beginning, when You meet the dancer/singer???

Just give it a go, and don't feel ashamed when You don't know something. You're just learning it, and after Your conversation with the dancer, She/He knows that as well....Work hard and get things right I think that's the best thing You can do.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 15:27:48

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
So, do dancers usually KNOW what should be played on guitar?

ROFLMAOLOL

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 15:39:18

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to XXX)

theres a 10 pages long thread on accompanying cante with examples and things to practice with

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 16:15:09

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

They might not know how to explain to you eaxactly what to play, but they will likely be able to tell you what not to play. I was trying to figure out tonas from a singer and she would shake her head when I played a wrong one. That was the extent of her instruction.

A dancer will probably be able to tell you when certain sections are starting or ending, like when a llamada starts, but those moves will be different for many dancers. You just have to start, and in time you will pick it up as you go. You'll have a blast, playing for dancers is so much fun. And your compas will really develop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

So, do dancers usually KNOW what should be played on guitar? Will they know how to explain what should be done (in terms of escobillas, salidas, llamadas, etc.) without themselves being tocaors?

Gracias!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 16:46:22

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Hey rombsix,

I would definitely do it if I were you (hopefully you won't be too busy this time). It sounds like a lot of fun and very edifying at the same time. I've seen a lot of the videos on your channel and based on what I've heard you should have no problem making people dance. If you go, please share your experiences. I'm also trying to get a spot accompanying a dance class and would be interested in hearing what another newbie went through.

@Florian--can you point to the 10 page long thread?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 17:31:11

veet

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Encuentro series - Merengue de Cordoba vol. 2 is pretty comprehensive, and all about accompanying cante.

No equivalent I know of exists for baile, just a lot of individual DVDs and YouTubes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 20:57:51

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to veet)

@Chester here is the Cante accompaniment thread

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

In my experience the best way to learn por Baile is on the job. Once you've got some basic compas find a dance teacher and start by playing for their beginners class. Go for it- you don't have to be fancy just strong compas, you'll be fine Ramzi. After that find a good dancer and work together on choreography and then get on stage -that's where you really learn!
Jason's site is the next best thing, he has the best and most useful accompaniment lessons I've come across.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2010 21:56:41

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)

quote:

it's very unlikely that a dancer would be able to explain what should be played

Really good dance teachers can often sing for you what they want to hear, usually the letra they want, and sometimes they can sing the falseta they want. They can usually tell you when they want a strong rajeo, they can tell you when they want a stop, when they want you to mimic the rhythms of their feet and when they want you to keep playing something basic while they do something more complicated or syncopated.

Often though, dance teachers are not used to asking for what they want, as they are used to working with guitarists who know accompaniment well enough to intuit what the teacher wants without them having to ask for it.

But you can ask them what they want, at the level of what I just wrote it will usually be understood. Try to do things different ways, and then ask them which they prefer.

If in doubt just keep really strong rhythm (which you should do all the time anyway), that will usually please....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2010 22:57:03

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Hola y'all! I got contacted by a dancer yesterday (who I've met before, and know a bit through Facebook, but don't really stay in close contact with), about the possibility of accompanying him. I said I am not a baile/cante, or flamenco-in-general expert, but I don't mind. We exchanged contact information, and he surprisingly contacted me today, and we met and had coffee. He was insisting that we meet, and I frankly didn't just brush him off because I thought, if this guy is coming to me, and seems enthusiastic, then maybe this is the break I was waiting for to screw my courage to the sticking place and finally go for some accompaniment, after NINE years of playing solo in my room!

We decided to meet up next week, and see what we can come up with. I was frank with him though, that this is going to be a part-time thing, and I am NOT a full-time musician, contrary to him (being full-time, mostly Arabic folklore music, and partly flamenco, where he's taken several workshops, and recently spent three months in Madrid taking flamenco baile classes). I also made it clear to him that I have NOT accompanied anyone before (except my clone, in rumbas

), and that I am by no means an expert. He said that I am being too humble, and that he's seen my videos online, and that I am underestimating myself (which is something I would rather do, than to portray an image of being better than I actually am).

Let's see how the meeting will go. I'll keep y'all posted. Unfortunately, the studio he teaches at (and expects me to meet him at) is NOT a walking-distance away from my home, which means I need to drive there (and I'm not too keen on driving). I guess I'm going to need to start taking flamenco seriously if this works out. I guess if I manage my time, and make use of this opportunity, I'll benefit on many levels (get some accompaniment experience, work on some decent flamenco rather than mostly rumba, get some practice driving, meet new people, and hopefully make better use of my time to study for my exams / courses knowing that I now have something "serious" to do other than school, which should hopefully get my life more in order). Or else, I'll either fail in school, or shy out of this accompaniment gig.

(mixed emotions, as you can see).

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2011 18:34:11

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

congratulation man !! this is a great opportunity .. hope everything goes well.
about the mixed emotions

I feel the same from time to time (school,music) and it's really annoying ,depressing also frustrating I can say .
Good luck !!! u deserve it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2011 8:24:54

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to Elie)

You can do this easily bro!
it sounds to me that hes right, you are being overly humble but I think humility is a good quality. so fair enough.

I also think you are a little afraid. afraid of ****ing up in the class, afraid of stepping out of your comfort zone, of not being good enough etc...

I am the same in several thing I do and was the same when I started playing for dancers but overcoming those trepidations was one of the best feelings ever and playing for dancers is great.
it gives all that hard work youve put in some purpose...you wont regret it....

i still **** up in class and me and the teacher look at each other blankly sometimes but its all good...we work it out together

youll manage your time... it'll be fine.
and who knows... maybe youll fail at school (prob not) but start soaring at flamenco and youre life will take a different path to what youd expected.

good luck with it all ramzi!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2011 11:10:56

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

"Mate, I don't really know how to accompany baile..."

Go for it and tell us later on

You were a member of Jason's site wasn't it?
He had a lot of stuff accompany dance.

Changes are big the dancers have the same fear as you do...."jee, I don't know how to dance to the guitar because I miss the cajon..."

or something similar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2011 12:46:56

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to kozz)

re the david leiva books, being honest about it these books are a guide, not a 100% get you cool "flamenco cante" and booked at the royal albert hall material. you basically get chords but the falsetas are not as inspiring.

its just a primer, btw if you're serious about cante try and attend antonio carrions curso in sanlucar, i found it of immense benefit last year in tandem with the lessons on cante accomp i got from Jesus Aggardo "el Guardia" in jerez.

either that or buy rafael merengue's encuetro dvd, one of the guys at the curso had a dvd of it and played it on his laptop. not amazing stuff but once again a beginning for amateur flamencos and ethuasiasts to refer to.

manolo franco's dvd set appears good too, i have the solea dvd and it is really good but only covers a solea de alcala style of cante accomp.

honestly as norman said to me in jerez you could spend three lifetimes looking at the cante of each area and its variations.

i made the conscious decision a year or so back to stick with the jerez style of playing and get as much of it as i can, hence an almost yearly return to jerez.

re baile i think john opheim recommended a series call ritmo flamenco that have vids of dancers to accompany along with solo compas tracks and pedro sierra is the accompanist on a number of these cds.

bodas de gloria is prob the best example ive seen in a long time as to how dance accomp should be done its ramon amador and pedro sierra on guitar with el gran maestro el farruco and farruquito. jaw dropping stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2011 15:45:18

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to henrym3483)

Thanks y'all! I'll keep everyone posted.

Henry: Any details you can spare about Ritmo Flamenco or Bodas de Gloria?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 15:59:08

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

bodas de gloria is a flamenco dance spectacular and has alot of baile gitano. stars el farruco, farruquito, la farruca y la pharona all of familia de los farrucos

pedro sierra and ramon amador on guitar and juan villar, juana de la revuelo on cante. you get a fair idea of whats required and some falsetas and compas patterns can be worked out from the views on pedro and ramon.available on dvd

ritmo flamenco is for sale on flamenco-world.com and deflamenco.com its a solo compas equivalent but with the presence of videos por baile and pedro sierra does alot of the compas tracks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 22:41:42

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Hello friends!

I just got back from my first dance accompaniment session with the dancer I told you about (who contacted me two or three weeks ago). I showed him what I can do, and he showed me a bit of what he can do. Clearly, however, I don't know much when it comes to baile. He started throwing terms at me, llamada, escobilla, etc., and I didn't know what he was talking about. I mean, I know what a llamada is, and what an escobilla is, but I don't know HOW to play them. He gave me tips about what he usually hears guitarists do, but I need to work on these on my own.

I guess I'm moving onto the big leagues now, having to start working on real flamenco, instead of rumbas and Amr Diab stuff.

He said that he has some sort of DVD that has the important palos on it, and shows (through audio) what needs to be played in llamads, escobillas, letras, etc. I hope I can get that stuff from him. I am also going to shift gears now and start listening to cante and watching baile videos. I have some material about that, which I'm going to work on too. He said he would like to start with alegria and buleria, so I'm going to start off with those.

He really cornered me when it came to compas. I am SOLID when it comes to the compas cycles I know (which I use to play solos and falsetas), but they sounded so BORING when I just kept playing them over and over. I tried to improvise compas cycles like the ones I hear in cante tracks, or in baile videos, but I failed miserably! I was thrown off compas, and I got "the look" from the dancer.

And that was in the palos I considered myself to be really good at (solea for example). He wanted me to play solea por buleria, or seguiriya, but I just ran away from those because I am SUPER weak when it comes to those palos, especially seguiriya! Even though I know it is not libre, it just sounds as such to me. The whole rubato/elastic compas in seguiriya just drives me nuts!

Boy, am I such a beginner when it comes to "real" flamenco...

Oh well, back to the drawing board, I guess.

Any help or tips would be really appreciated (or just words of wisdom, or support

).

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2011 20:58:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

You can do it man!
Playing for baile you will not be allowed to be so elastic anyway. Seguiriyas for baile is very metered and rhythmic. Just think of the rhythm as a Bulerias starting on 8.
Right now just start working on TONS of variations on simple compas strumming and remates for various palos. You will be fine. Learn to make a lot of noise with your guitar in a controlled fashion.
here's a random example I just found:

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 3:06:09

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

I am not a member yet, But the accompaniment courses that Pedro Cortes offers at his site seem really good

I cant find any examples of those lessons on youtube, but he has some on his facebook page

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 3:28:42

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Romb your feeling like a newb and your going a lot further than a lot of us . When I realized the learning is what makes me happy , That was big

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 6:59:36

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Thank y'all for the support! I was discussing with the dancer yesterday that we do NOT have a singer (there is a slight possibility, though it's quite a long shot), and how that is going to affect what we're trying to do. Is it possible to have a show where you only have a guitarist, dancer, and percussionist / palmeros, WITHOUT a cantaor? It was super-lucky that the dancer and I met, and it seems kind of impossible now to find a singer...

Any input on that please?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 7:11:47

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

I believe in no words , music and dance is powerful

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Peace.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 7:20:39

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

Is it possible to have a show where you only have a guitarist, dancer, and percussionist / palmeros, WITHOUT a cantaor?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 9:39:51

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Accompanying cante and baile (in reply to rombsix)

Check this out also. Just listen to the outstanding "El Cabeza" guitar sound and groove. One of the best dance accomp guitarist imo.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2011 10:23:44