Aged wood

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Aged wood

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Aged wood

I was just reading an article about Scotch whisky (they don't spell it with an e in Scotland) makers in the latest issue of The New Yorker Magazine and it seems that the whisky business has something in common with guitar making:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 20:15:47

estebanana

Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Nice work. I love the New Yorker.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 22:55:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

I was just reading an article about Scotch whisky (they don't spell it with an e in Scotland) makers in the latest issue of The New Yorker Magazine and it seems that the whisky business has something in common with guitar making:

It may not matter with scotch whiskey (yuck! why would anyone drink that swill when there's American bourbon) but I'm sure you know it matters a great deal with wood. We just strung a short scale (650mm) blanca with an Engelmann top that we harvested in 1987. I guess the only way one can be sure it's Engelmann is to cut it yourself. It has the typical round character of Engelmann which I find less pleasing than Euro spruce. No more Engelmann..from now on I'm sticking to Caucasian spruce we get from Turkey.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 23:31:00

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I guess I am more accepting than you John. I love good Bourbon, don't get me wrong, but a fine Scotch is not something I'd kick out of bed as it were. Try to be more universal and see the good in all. Scotch, Bourbon, Vodka, Tequilla....Bring them unto me and they shall abide in the house of Green, until they pass through the house of Green and wind up in the septic tank that is

Where did you get the Engelmann? I remember getting some tops from New World Spruce back in the early 90's that was cut in the US and it was like sponge wood. A lot of the Engelmann I've gotten from Canada though is closer to Euro in stiffness and such. Of course who knows what kind of cross pollination goes on up there.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 2:26:06

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Aged wood (in reply to jshelton5040)

John-

I have a lot of respect for you and it is not my intention to be contrary, but--
I have used exclusively Engelmann spruce, and always find it to produce wonderful flamenco guitars. Even when I have had a piece that seemed floppy it worked fine with bracing. And I have received Engelmann from the sawyer in Canada and used it the same month with excellent results.

When it comes to spirits, I like them all--right now I'm sipping some Jack Daniel's. I'm a true kindasewer (is that how you spell it?).

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 3:16:53

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

An old man, Mr. Smith, resided in a nursing home. One day he went into the nurses' office and informed Nurse Jones that his penis died.

Nurse Jones, realizing Mr. Smith was old and forgetful decided to play along with him. "It did? I'm sorry to hear that," she replied.

Two days later, Mr. Smith was walking down the halls at the nursing home with his penis hanging outside his pants.

Nurse Jones saw him and said "Mr. Smith! I thought you told me your penis died". "It did" he replied; "Today is the viewing."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 4:50:16

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I'd rather use a good piece of Engelmann than mediocre Euro that cost me 5X as much. Cedar, Lutz, Engelmann, Sitka and Euro; price per quality Euro is last on the list from where I'm sitting. If I lived in Europe I'd used it, but I don't so I won't let any romantic notions cloud my judgement.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 5:00:48

estebanana

Posts: 9359
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Wood is wood, but liquor is quikor.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 5:59:50

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen
Where did you get the Engelmann? I remember getting some tops from New World Spruce back in the early 90's that was cut in the US and it was like sponge wood. A lot of the Engelmann I've gotten from Canada though is closer to Euro in stiffness and such. Of course who knows what kind of cross pollination goes on up there.....

We cut it ourselves in northern Idaho from a rare straight tree. We've never had any trouble selling Engelmann top guitars. I think most people like the voice it produces and Susan prefers it. My personal view is it's better for classics. I like a more metallic voice in flamenco guitars and for some reason probably having to do more with our top thickness, bracing and contruction methods the Caucasian spruce from the supplier in Turkey is giving me the results I want.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 14:28:30

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

It could also be that Engelmann Spruce's dark grain lines are not as hard as the other Spruce's nor is it as stiff across the grain. This would account for it sounding less metallic to your ears; also why it seasons and plays in quicker. If Euro and Cedar could make babies Engelmann would probably be their bastard child.

On the subject of floppy tops Ethan, I know Bob Ruck will intentionally pick a floppy top depending on the end product he is shooting for. One of his wood cutters told me Bob asked him to pick out some less stiff tops for an order. When he asked him why, Mr Ruck told him some clients prefer floppy tops.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 15:54:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

It could also be that Engelmann Spruce's dark grain lines are not as hard as the other Spruce's nor is it as stiff across the grain. This would account for it sounding less metallic to your ears; also why it seasons and plays in quicker. If Euro and Cedar could make babies Engelmann would probably be their bastard child.

To be honest with you Sean Engelmann looks just like Euro spruce to me. If anything this top is more uniformly white than normal. Definitely no dark grain lines.

The only Engelmann I have experience with is the stuff we cut ourselves from northern Idaho. We tried to buy some from a couple of suppliers but it was all junk with too much runout...totally unusable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 16:18:16

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Sorry poor choice of wording, visible grain lines would have been more appropriate. It is softer, lighter in weight and although it can visually pass for Euro it doesn't feel like it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 16:47:54

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Sorry poor choice of wording, visible grain lines would have been more appropriate. It is softer, lighter in weight and although it can visually pass for Euro it doesn't feel like it.

I suspect the area where the spruce grows and local genetics have a strong effect on the characteristics of the wood. This wood was from high elevation in the Bitterroot mountains near the Idaho/Montana border. If I had a few more of the tops from the wood we harvested I'd send you one but I think the one on this guitar is the last of that wood. Unfortunately the area where this wood came from all burned in a forest fire the year after we were there. No matter, I'm much too old and worn out to mount another wood cutting expedition anyway. It was great fun at the time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 18:22:25

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

It must be where it grows then, or I was possibly sold something else as Engelmann. Those few tops I had, I could have easily picked out of a pile of identical looking Euro tops, they were that different.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 18:57:42

jshelton5040

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 11 2013 22:41:09

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 22:40:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

It must be where it grows then, or I was possibly sold something else as Engelmann. Those few tops I had, I could have easily picked out of a pile of identical looking Euro tops, they were that different.

Sean,
Here's a picture of the Engelmann blanca. I know I'm a lousy photographer but see if you don't agree that this looks exactly like Euro spruce.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90648494@N03/sets/72157632517281760/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 11 2013 23:07:09

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Oh it can look just like it for sure, the stuff I had though was much softer then Euro. The visible grain lines were not any harder then the surrounding wood. Not very scientific but pressing my thumbnail into the wood other types of spruce were noticeably harder on the lines. Since you went into the woods yourself and cut your own, I have no reason to doubt you. Did you ever run into any Euro Spruce on your wood cutting trips? It grows in North America as an introduced species, it was very popular for telephone poles because of its straight growth.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2013 0:11:53

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Aged wood (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Did you ever run into any Euro Spruce on your wood cutting trips? It grows in North America as an introduced species, it was very popular for telephone poles because of its straight growth.

I don't claim to be an expert on spruce so I wouldn't have any idea how to tell the difference. My understanding is that once you get east of the Cascade mountains virtually all the spruce you encounter in the northwest of the US will be Engelmann so that's why I can safely say this is Engelmann.

We took three trips to the Bitterroot Mountains to look for guitar quality spruce. It's quite a complicated undertaking to be able to harvest a spruce tree on government land. First you go to the Forestry office to get a wood cutting permit and pick up maps of the area you plan to survey (this all costs money) then you spend endless hours driving on rough logging roads in the mountains looking for a tree that is number 1: damaged in some way..number 2: straight...number 3: large enough in diameter to make good tops. Once you find an acceptable tree you drive back to the forestry office (many miles) give them the specific location of the tree and they either give you permission, deny permission or tell you to wait until they check on it.

We found a very small number of trees during our three trips that were possible candidates for guitar wood and ended up cutting two trees into guitar length billets, waxing the ends and hauling them 600 miles home to wait for them to cure. Most of the wood was cut into violin blanks and sold to violin and cello makers.

Our travels revealed some real eye opening vistas. At that time the logging company swine considered Engelmann spruce a weed tree. When clear cutting they piled the Engelmann into huge decks and left it to rot. I saw whole valleys with log decks of Engelmann spruce running for literally miles. Many of these trees were 40" or more in diameter. The wood was all ruined of course from sitting in the dry summer weather. There was enough Engelmann spruce wasted in the small area that we surveyed to keep us all in old growth Engelmann spruce for the rest of our lives. As if it weren't bad enough to waste this wonderful resource the logging swine left signs at the access points to the log decks saying "no wood harvesting..violators will be prosecuted".

Now you know why I hate loggers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 12 2013 1:11:00

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

As long as we are voicing our opinions I will say that I think wood benefits from a certain number of years seasoning, different for each species. I don't believe that the older the better, just that 5 or 10 years is a good thing as the resins crystallize and that the harder woods take years to stop shrinking. As I posted today on my blog I just scored some great old wood and I will make some great guitars with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 22:02:40

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Aged wood (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I have to agree as ebony never seems to season. Really, who was the ass that decided ebony was a good thing? Other then being black and hard it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Ok maybe I was wrong