S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(?) Bridge

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dartemo1

Posts: 76
Joined: Apr. 21 2010

S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(?) B...

Browsing lasonata found an interesting blanca from S. Schlemper, 2007. From the picture it has sort of double bridge, where strings are attached to a bridge and there is a separate piece for the saddle. Is that a traditional design and why would one use (or want) this? Thank you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 21:13:39

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

Odd... I guess he's trying to reduce weight with this design? It'd be interesting to know how much the two parts weigh.

It kinda looks like a gypsy jazz style floating bridge but without the tailpiece. A lot of old German guitars had tailpieces so maybe he came from that school and adapted that to the Spanish style.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2015 23:20:06

Mason

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 4 2014
From: Texas

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

On his site it says it "improves attack".

That rosette is cool. Got me thinking about rosettes, and I wonder why luthiers don't experiment with something more asymmetrical.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2015 0:52:05

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

I like that kind of subdivided rosette too. Would be cool if the dividing elements could be looking sort of like those typical rivets on colonial style furnitures.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2015 1:20:13

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

I recall a thread, at Delcamp I believe, about 1-2 years ago about this type of bridge. As I recall the consensus was the two part bridge was really a typical bridge split into parts and probably did not add anything to the sound. I wonder if the weight of the 2 piece saddle might be more given each part, especially the saddle slot, might need more wood for strength and form whereas a typical saddle has both connected.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2015 10:23:29

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

I believe it improves the attack, as the luthier claims.
I did some experiments with bridges and I noticed that to split the bridge (or anyway to improve the strings angle in order to increase the torque) can easily drive to a better attack.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2015 10:28:05

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I believe it improves the attack, as the luthier claims.
I did some experiments with bridges and I noticed that to split the bridge (or anyway to improve the strings angle in order to increase the torque) can easily drive to a better attack.

Hmm not so fast. Increasing the break angle doesn't increase torque on the bridge, although having a higher saddle does as it moves the strings further from the top, also producing a noticeable/measurable effect on tone. Al Carruth has done a lot of research in this area.

Switching to a 12-hole tie block increases the break angle a lot but if you notice a change in sound it's probably your imagination. Don't underestimate the placebo effect in all areas of life. Perceptions are processed by the brain which happens to be the same organ that produces cognitive bias, emotions, etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 4 2015 21:30:12

norumba2

Posts: 37
Joined: May 20 2015

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

Switching to a 12-hole tie block increases the break angle a lot but if you notice a change in sound it's probably your imagination. Don't underestimate the placebo effect in all areas of life. Perceptions are processed by the brain which happens to be the same organ that produces cognitive bias, emotions, etc.

a tie bock arrangement does indeed change the break angle a lot, but it definitely has a noticeable impact on tone. ..so I respectfully disagree that the change in tone is in the imagination. I've worked with both Iraqi-style floating bridge ouds and regular ouds, and they are very very different beasts in tone, attack, sustain, feel, and response. Iraqi floating bridge ouds have a much more defined attack, a drier, airier, tone, better sustain and definition. On the down side, i think they are less forgiving if not built well -- less successful floating bridge ouds can sound brittle and/or have a weird banjo-like tone to them. The ideal in a floating bridge oud is to have all of that construction's attributes as mentioned but still retain some warmth.

Now, true, there are other differences in construction - the top has a different curvature and the bracing is different -- but those factors derived to accomodate the increase in tension. Nonetheless, the aggregate is a very different sounding instrument.

Interesting to see how a flamenco build would sound with such a set up, i think it would work nicely.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2015 6:45:09

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

Hi,
I noticed an improved attack just by a practical experiment using a 2 elements bridge.
My opinion is that the torque effect is improved as splitting the base of the traditional bridge implies more flexibility.
I noticed a faster attack also by improving "substantially" the break angle (which is a different matter, I agree of course).
The way I tried the latter was by shaving the string tower, making the six holes on the bridge base and letting the string pass through the top (same way Gioacchino Giusssni does).
To me the result was clear but it's true that I didn't take any sensible data.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2015 7:32:29

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to norumba2)

quote:

Now, true, there are other differences in construction - the top has a different curvature and the bracing is different -- but those factors derived to accomodate the increase in tension. Nonetheless, the aggregate is a very different sounding instrument.

Exactly - you're talking about a completely different thing, not just simply changing the strings' angle over the saddle.

Echi - I didn't mean to say that this style of bridge wouldn't change the sound of the guitar. I certainly think it would but it's not because of break angle over the saddle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2015 10:40:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: S. Schlemper Blanca with Double(... (in reply to dartemo1)

Its IMHO impossible to compare floating versus fixed bridges. the soundboard works in two different way. So what is good for one design has no or negative impact on the other design.
In the end, what matters is to respect the way a design works and learn to balance out the individual components of the design.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 5 2015 11:38:53