Intonation of flamenco guitars and guitars in general

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MunichLuthier

Posts: 18
Joined: May 12 2015

Intonation of flamenco guitars and g...

Hi all,

we had a thread that was closed by the admins because of the way it went. But I noticed some interest in this issue and it was inspiring for me to read other peoples thoughts about this issue.

Now without wanting to bring up the same discussion again, I would like to know if intonation is an issue for you at all and what you do to improve it? And I would like to continue with the interesting oarts of the discussion we had and hope it goes along without fighting!

I have my own approach to that but I don't want to push on that as for me it is more interesting, what you think about this issue? Is it an issue at all?

Kind reagrds from Munich!

Michael

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2015 21:55:37

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

good info http://liikanenguitars.com/Guitar-compensation.php

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2015 23:09:39

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

That is based on the Greg Byers article http://www.byersguitars.com/Research/intonation.pdf that I referenced previously.
It's a pretty good starting point for ordinary nylon strings
What I normally do is cut the fretboard 1mm short at the nut. the G string will normally be left there and the nut cut back towards the tuners on the other strings by various amounts. This is adjusted to get the guitar playing in tune on the lower frets. the bridge saddle is then adjusted to give an in tune result at the 12th

On steel string guitars on a new build I normally use the approach given by Trevor Gore as a starting point and cut the nut end of the board back 3mm and use a stepped nut the fine tuning process is the same, get the first position right then tune the 12th
Here is one waiting to go in a steel string, length to be cut down.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2015 4:20:31

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

I've been thinking about experimenting with a ledge to move the the G string forward towards the bridge instead of the fingerboard shortening.

The question is, put a slot in the end of the finger board and make the nut fit? Or straight cut on the end and the extension lays on top of the fingerboard?

Second plan seems better for resale value and ease, but will the ledge be too fragile? So maybe a halfway measure, a ledge that is slipped into a small pocket in front of the G string station of the nut.

I might try this on a long scale 660 guitar that has a wild G string.
____Normally I just compensate the G string extra on the saddle and sometimes I take a sliver of the end of the fingerboard at the nut. And then compensate at the saddle by moving it away from the nut. Usual stuff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2015 4:38:41

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

Straight cut on the fretboard and ledge is fine.
On new builds I cut the board short by 1mm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2015 4:48:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland
On steel string guitars on a new build I normally use the approach given by Trevor Gore as a starting point and cut the nut end of the board back 3mm and use a stepped nut the fine tuning process is the same, get the first position right then tune the 12th

I did this for years on classic guitars using a router to cut both sides of the nut to adjust each string. It required a wide nut slot and customers liked it but I really hated getting my fingers that close to the router while cutting the notches and never did come up with a good and safe method for holding the nut while doing the routing. I think it's not particularly valuable on flamenco guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2015 14:22:57

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

A friend does my SS nuts on a small drill press he has set up as a pin router. The blank is held in place on a pattern which follows the pin.
Is it worth it?
On a SS I would say it definitely is.
On a Nylon String the adjustment is much more subtle but will make a difference for some players. If you don't want to go with a stepped nut then just cutting the board short by 1/2mm and using a plain nut still improves things.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 0:51:00

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

If you don't want to go with a stepped nut then just cutting the board short by 1/2mm and using a plain nut still improves things.

I've found this helps too. But it gave me the idea to try a ledge made of ebony to extend under the G. I'm going to try it on a guitar I have been keeping for myself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 1:45:57

MunichLuthier

Posts: 18
Joined: May 12 2015

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

Hi!

This is especially for Jeff and estebana: Do you use standard nut compensations or do you make them individually for each guitar?

Have you ever tried to manipulate the way you position the frets? We had this discussion about my patent and it has the fret positions in its focus and what it does is to move each fret a bit "north" (towards the nut), depending on the fret number. And it moves the crossing of the 6th string and each fret a bit more "north" than the crossing of the 1st string and the same fret. This way, the frets twist the more, the higher the fret no is.

I build guitars with a zero fret, because I like the fact, that the sound of an empty string is closer to the one of a pressed note adn I start with lower action hight - even if this forces me to spend hours on the right fretboard curve.

Did you ever experiment with the fret positions?

Regards - Michael

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 18:10:30

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

Hi Michael
My approach is to use a stepped nut cut to a predetermined shape (different for nylon and SS) install it string up and then adjust it as necessary to get frets 1 and 2 in tune.
the starting point is a little forward so I can cut back towards the tuners if the note is flat.
I then adjust the saddle by filing facets to get the 12th fret in tune which gets the whole fretboard very close to perfect.
I have not experimented with moving frets, I prefer to just cut the slots accurately using a template and mitre box rather than measuring, marking and lining up a sawcut with my older eyes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 22:10:43

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

I don't compensate the nut, I compensate the saddle however. I find on flamenco guitars usually compensating the nut is not needed. Besides once you put the cejilla the fret becomes the nut. Compensated nut is useless when the cejilla is in fret 5.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2015 23:53:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

yes, only classical guitars need compensation because they don't know how to play in tune. Leave flamenco guitars alone please.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 23 2015 7:07:09

MunichLuthier

Posts: 18
Joined: May 12 2015

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

@Ricardo: Good joke!

...now as we have a "docmatic"-free and "insult"-free discussion here, is any one really interested in my fret-compensation aka as patented scale?

btw. it has less problems with cejilla and its not entirely true what estebana says. I have observed that after corrections, guitars tune much better with the capo than before.

...and when I read what you do, its more or less the same we all do when its about setting up or correcting guitars with standard measures on the fretboard. I asked about the standard nut compensation because in my corrections - as I wrote in the other thread - not even two guitars were the same out of approx. 50. The only thing that I can say out of this numbers of guitars is that 1st and 2nd strings have the smallest problems and on many guitars none at all, the 4th/D had a surprisingly high occurrance of problems and the G is not as bad as people say.

And I observed already 5 times now, that the 5th/A needed lengthening on the nut and not shortening.

I don't want to claim that all of that dissappears with my calculation, but I would say that you do not have to spend as much time on compensation during fine tuning as on standard scales. And as it stays with the usual production procedure, its not more expensive than the standard method and is safes time and it is significantly better in tune and in many cases close to perfect.

As I said in the other thread, I give you the positions if you want to try it.

Have a nice weekend!

Michael

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2015 6:44:58

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

I won't take you up on it Michael, would not have the opportunity for some time, I have two underway at the moment both with fretboards already cut so it would just be an intellectual exercise at the moment and that would not be fair to you. Thanks anyhow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 24 2015 9:36:20

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Intonation of flamenco guitars a... (in reply to MunichLuthier)

I have one of John Shelton's blancas. It has the best intonation of any guitar I've owned--noticeably good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 6 2015 13:27:45