Conde bracing pattern

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MG Perez

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 15 2015

Conde bracing pattern

Does Anybody have 1955 Conde soundboard bracing pics, or for that matter, any Conde bracing pics ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2015 6:27:57

Fawkes

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Ignore the drawing in the first post, but Ricardo shows his lit up Conde lower down:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=245363&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#245887

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2015 13:47:46

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Here is someones copy of that modern Conde top (I think TANunez).
The next 3 are from a '74 Conde.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2015 22:35:58

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

And then for fun, a 2006 Sanchis

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Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2015 22:38:15

MG Perez

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 15 2015

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Having second thoughts on Santos build, the Conde has something.....idk. Need to find plans though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 3:00:05

Fawkes

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

How could I forget:

http://www.rebrune.com/1967-faustino-conde/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 3:16:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Bracing patterns are IMHO pretty irrelevant and as such for me uninteresting. In the end its just a bunch of sticks glued on a flat surface. There are and have been hundreds of variations of the "abanico" and there´s little if any conclusion to be found.

What is interesting is what has been done with the sticks and the flat surface. In this aspect, the work on the 67 Faustino is interesting. Look at how the braces have been shaped. (and how rough the inside of the guitar is).

Its very difficult if not impossible to copy an instrument. There are so many variabels in wood characteristics and working environments that does that in the end, its all about the Luthiers capacity to bring all these variabels together to a whole that matters. (using left, right or both brain halves, fingers, nose, inspiration, duende, mala leche etc.)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 8:22:30

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Bracing patterns are IMHO pretty irrelevant and as such for me uninteresting. In the end its just a bunch of sticks glued on a flat surface. There are and have been hundreds of variations of the "abanico" and there´s little if any conclusion to be found.

Interesting thoughts, I come from largely an acoustic guitar sensibility and the bracing is one of the most important variables in sound.

The inside of the 67 Conde is very interesting, some of the woodworking looks a bit rough handed, the kerfing in particular; but I'm sure the guitar must still sound like a beast!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 10:44:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I am in complete agreement with Anders. Yet frequently the first question people ask about my guitars is what bracing pattern I use. I am so glad Anders took the trouble to comment on this. There are many myths about guitar making that sometimes make it hard for luthiers to communicate with clients.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 13:24:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14830
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

The inside of the 67 Conde is very interesting, some of the woodworking looks a bit rough handed, the kerfing in particular; but I'm sure the guitar must still sound like a beast!

It was the best guitar I played in Brune's museum. Other players might be of different opinions...the sound was tight and focused, not loud, but the perfect response for what I wanted to do. But most conde's are like that too. Not knowing before about the bracing, I have no choice but concede to what Anders is saying but...what a coincidence that the guitars built with those parallel stick have similar "good" qualities.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 13:52:19

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Soundboard bracing definitely matters but the pattern not so much. What matters is stiffness gradients on the top. The interesting thing on the modern Conde design is those large, stiff braces next to the center one.
Studying different top bracing patterns is interesting to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 14:03:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

What matters is stiffness gradients on the top.

And many other things.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 20:22:28

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Culpepper

Soundboard bracing definitely matters but the pattern not so much. What matters is stiffness gradients on the top.

There's nothing like building a bunch of guitars to discover the truth about bracing patterns. It's a really complicated formula...stiff top with the bracing the right dimension and impeccable craftsmanship equals a good guitar. A great guitar is an accident.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2015 22:38:06

MG Perez

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 15 2015

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

I finished a 51' Barbero negra recently and like the sound(agressive). Thinking modern Conde(5 fan&spread) with larger #2,#4 running up thru LH and 51'Barbero style closing bars. So a Conde/Barbero blanca hybrid, POC neck, back and sides, Engleman top, ebony binding. I used planetary pegs last time but wil use Sloans on this one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2015 4:15:11

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

There's nothing like building a bunch of guitars to discover the truth about bracing patterns. It's a really complicated formula...stiff top with the bracing the right dimension and impeccable craftsmanship equals a good guitar. A great guitar is an accident.

From a customer viewpoint this is the conclusion I reached after many years. So if you want a great flamenco guitar, go to someone who has a reputation of producing consistently good flamenco guitars. It eventually worked for me. The trick is to find someone who hasn't progressed though the golden gates to "designer label" status. There is plenty of choice.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 9:36:59

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

It seems to me that the layout of braces would be, in part, a function of the characteristics of the top wood and possibly equally, if not more, important would be the thickness of the brace and the height of the brace--along with slopes. Question for the luthiers--would placement of braces and their structure change given one piece of top wood over another piece of top wood?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 12:16:00

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to keith)

quote:

Question for the luthiers--would placement of braces and their structure change given one piece of top wood over another piece of top wood?

There are so many variables to work with that in order to make any sense of it, it is necessary to hold some of them constant. Having experimented with several "bracing patterns" I find it convenient to stick with one--one that pretty well affects the entire soundboard belly. Now with that in place I do vary the height of the fan braces according to the flexibility of the top at hand. To go the other way around--vary the positions of the braces--would be much more hit or miss, since once they're glued down they can't conveniently be re-positioned. However, the heights of the braces can be adjusted gradually and the response of the top can be tested along the way by tapping and listening and by flexing.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 14:20:23

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

It seems to me that the layout of braces would be, in part, a function of the characteristics of the top wood and possibly equally, if not more, important would be the thickness of the brace and the height of the brace--along with slopes. Question for the luthiers--would placement of braces and their structure change given one piece of top wood over another piece of top wood?

Structure yes, placement no. We use a completely different bracing pattern for classics than for flamencos but the patterns are always the same.

To learn the effect of changes to the bracing layout, shape, thickness, etc. the changes must be very small or maybe precise is a better word. For example, if you keep the braces as close to the same as possible and thin the top a little from one guitar to the next (assuming the top wood and brace wood are from ajacent cuts) you might learn something but if you change something else at the same time you learn nothing. The problem is that the sample of guitars for an individual luthier is so small that its almost impossible to derive real information so a lot of what you do comes from intuition. Intuition seems to improve with the number of guitars built but in at least in my case it's taken so many years that I'm running out of time. If guitar making weren't so fascinating the frustration involved would make it unbearable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 14:35:03

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

ethan and john--thanks for the information. as a non-luthier the information helps to make sense how a few pieces of wood glued together can produce an ethereal sound (or, if not done properly, cacaphony).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 15:30:25

MG Perez

Posts: 30
Joined: Feb. 15 2015

RE: Conde bracing pattern (in reply to MG Perez)

Thanks for all the advice. I will use it for the Conde/Barbero build. I agree that you must follow your intuition and for me it make sense to merge these 2 bracing patterns. It is interesting that the 1934 Santos has much longer parallel fan braces for flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2015 18:43:50