Bridge-centered bracing

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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

Bridge-centered bracing

Forum fella´s questioning about guitars used in Paco´s last album brought up links that led me to a video of a flamenco guitar built by Pepe Romero´s son of same name.

First thing that makes you stunned are these young guys these days like Pepe or Andy Culpepper who not enough come to learn the guitar, but also how to build some so amazingly well.
But that remarkable point may be spared for a dedicated thread sometime.

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.

Now, don´t ask me why hearing of such appeared plausible to me spontaneously, as that would be a vague mixture of general physics with layman´s pondering, but take a listen to the clip here yourself.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/p4016-2012-pepe-romero-cdin.html

If this a fully articulate guitar or what is it?
-

Naturally, it could be more due to the overal building talents of the man than to bracing patterns, but it wouldn´t surprise me if such bracing would only help the output of an extremely well voiced and balanced specimen.

Ruphus

PS:
I would love to hear how a blanca of such build would sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 11:55:56

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

This type of bracing was being used long before the Rodriguez example that inspired the young Pepster.
The Spanish born - Argentina based maker Jose Yacopi (1916-2006) began using it in the late 1940s and continued with it for his best guitars for many years.

The Yacopi operation evolved into a factory in Buenos Aries that is currently under the direction of Jose's son Fernando.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 13:45:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to C. Vega)

Thank your for the info, Charles!
Why has this way of bracing seen so little attention / usage?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 14:04:29

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

I have no idea.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 14:07:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the sound-hole.

Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 15:37:24

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.

Isn't that what I just said three posts ago? Duh.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 15:41:27

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

tom, are you saying the point of convergence, if you will, is at the tail block? that is, the struts are closer to each other at the tail block and farther from each other as one moves towards the soundhole?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 15:50:46

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

only 12000$

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 16:57:10

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

The R. Dynasty has its standards, and San Diego is just as beautiful as it is expensive ... ( First time I notice that he moved from their Spanish domicile, which must be a great place to live in.)

But seriously, I agree.
Such is through the roof, even for top notch.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 17:03:55

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to keith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

tom, are you saying the point of convergence, if you will, is at the tail block? that is, the struts are closer to each other at the tail block and farther from each other as one moves towards the sound-hole?

Yes Sir, closer together at the tail block.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 17:40:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.

Isn't that what I just said three posts ago? Duh.

I apologize your majesty, I didn't see your post until later.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 17:42:17

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

paco has record his last disc with a conde hermanos guitar .

Never with that .

This is lies commercial

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 18:10:29

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

Guitars are listed in the credits:

Tony Morales
Lester Devoe
Pepe Romero
Hermanos Conde

Estas diciendo que Paco es un mentiroso? O es una conspiracion?
Sabes el "Duff Man" de los Simpsons??? Tu eres como el "Duff Man" por Conde lolol

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 18:41:05

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2014 19:35:29

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 19:34:48

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.

I just watched the video and PR said that the fan braces fan out from the tail end of the soundboard, not from the bridge.

Oops, sorry, everyone knows that already.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 20:09:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.

I just watched the video and PR said that the fan braces fan out from the tail end of the soundboard, not from the bridge.

Oops, sorry, everyone knows that already.

Ethan, you are a funny guy! Hope everything is well with you.....

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 20:18:17

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

On the side I linked to above they wrote:

quote:

... a reverse fan system (fans radiating from the bridge area, rather than from the soundhole)...

Thanks for correcting me, and now that I see that we are talking some cm further dorsal: A builder of mucho flamenco sounding guitars told me of his special approach in the exact same region.
... Who knows, could be there´s the G-point of that thing. :O|

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2014 20:48:43

estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

The real question is not where the fan braces point, but how thick is the top with those braces and how is the bridge shaped and at what stage is it glued on etc.
Antonio Moya showed me his guitar made by a famous builder, and the braces go across the top as a 45 degree angle. It's a super guitar, and it's not a Conde'-

The reason the Yacopi design has not caught on is because very few builders take it on as a project to learn how to make. Most designs will work if you take the time to build several of them and learn how to put them together. They all have subtle differences and the Yacopi is almost esoteric by comparison to the Torres 'kite' set up of fan braces going the opposite direction pointed towards the sound hole. The differences in the basic structure make it a bit intimidating for builders unless you have the cojones to wander out into the unknown and the patience to deal wiht players who tell you it's wrong.

It's one of those things that would be fun to blind test. Ask the player to tell the difference between Conde's and non Conde's- Blancas and Nergras and Yacopis and other non standard bracing from Torres bracing.

If someone did that and the blind test was conducted well the result would likely be that you can't tell the difference between any of it without reading labels. Players would just end up showing which individual guitars they like better.

I'd for sure put one of my guitars into that blind test.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 0:47:47

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The real question is not where the fan braces point, but how thick is the top with those braces and how is the bridge shaped and at what stage is it glued on etc.

I tend to agree that the bracing layout pattern is not so important as far as sound is concerned.

However, I think the traditional patterns radiating from around the 12th fret or thereabouts gives some important structural support between the bridge and the sound hole that would be diminished with the fan braces radiating from the tail. I have seen enough guitars that have collapsed in this area with string tension on the bridge.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 1:05:55

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

Ethan,

When I picture it in mind it appears as if tail oriented bundling would result into more support in the bridge to soundhole region, not less.

It seems to me like shifting the stiff section from around the soundhole towards the bridge.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 1:22:08

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

It's one of those things that would be fun to blind test. Ask the player to tell the difference between Conde's and non Conde's- Blancas and Nergras and Yacopis and other non standard bracing from Torres bracing.

If someone did that and the blind test was conducted well the result would likely be that you can't tell the difference between any of it without reading labels. Players would just end up showing which individual guitars they like better.

We talked about something like this in that other thread about violins. I'd love to see this…..Maybe GSI wouldn't but I think Trilogy might be willing, the owners a pretty cool guy.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 1:38:48

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

I am thinking that B has more support between the bridge and the sound hole than A.

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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 1:42:42

estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

I think the one on the left has nice hips & booty. You must be an assman.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 4:33:57

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

It needed be a Lopez bottom to allow Ethan sufficiently spread his struts.
But it won´t work out easy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/02/jennifer-lopez-butt-implants_n_5254696.html

Any of you guys listened to Pepe´s clip?
Though my personal taste gravitates to something more hoarse ( which I assume is mainly a question of set up / would still be doable), and preferring blanca characteristics anyway, I am seriously impressed by the fat, round tone and eveness accross the register. Substance and fully retained notes galore.

And it seems outstanding to me how lush and separating in the same time this guitar sounds.
Maybe it won´t cut through the noise of a juerga that well, but it should certainly excell for solo guitar / instrumentals.

I am so impressed by its sonic footprint that I´ve tried several times to access and listen again, but have been unable for now.
-

While reconsidering, I guess I wouldn´t always be delighted to see folks pointing out works of colleagues to me if I was a luthier. But this case is meant in the sense of sharing impressions and assuming the generousity of sincere appreciation for good work.

I know that you guys have reason to be self-confident enough and that you can be very generous and appreciative towards your guilds achievements.
-

Seeing Stephen´s explanation of how it takes experimenting to exploit another construction like this one, I think it only fits that someone like Pepe Romero went after it. I guess his living conditions may allow easily for the luxury of investing funds and time for an uncoventional concept. ( + having had the chance to come across a M. Rodriguez of that kind and be taken by it enough in the first place.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 10:29:50

estebanana

Posts: 9364
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

eeing Stephen´s explanation of how it takes experimenting to exploit another construction like this one, I think it only fits that someone like Pepe Romero went after it. I guess his living conditions may allow easily for the luxury of investing funds and time for an uncoventional concept. ( + having had the chance to come across a M. Rodriguez of that kind and be taken by it enough in the first place.)

I think he's a good guitar maker, and you are correct, he and his family have an extensive collection of guitars to study and that can never hurt. I understand he learned a lot from Dake Traphagen who is also a fine maker.

But I doubt it is easy even coming from a guitar minded family, it still takes drive and hard work. It's like Gitanos, just about every kid can dance or play some guitar if they try, but to become a top artist they still have to put in many years and hours.

Hoping Ethan is down with Sienfeld jokes....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 12:22:08

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen--
You mean it shows? I was concerned about my poor drawings.
Yes, when I had a television last, Seinfeld was one of the shows I watched.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 13:00:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

apparently this was done by Yacopi in argentina long before Rodriguez. He was drunk and glued the sticks wrong but it sounded better.

Oh wait did someone say that already?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 13:57:47

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bridge-centered bracing (in reply to Ruphus)

Nah.

Actually if my name was Yacopi it could be true. Sometimes I fiddle things absent in mind that are hard to believe.
Just to think of all the models I had to free from gispum with a hammer in the dental laboratory, after been absent minded once again.
At that time rightly so though, with spectacular babes robbing me hours of sleep.

- Today instead it rather be nursing jobs for battered pets that take my time.
Hopefully no lasting change of occupation.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2014 16:16:36