Bridge-centered bracing (Full Version)

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Ruphus -> Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 11:55:56)

Forum fella´s questioning about guitars used in Paco´s last album brought up links that led me to a video of a flamenco guitar built by Pepe Romero´s son of same name.

First thing that makes you stunned are these young guys these days like Pepe or Andy Culpepper who not enough come to learn the guitar, but also how to build some so amazingly well.
But that remarkable point may be spared for a dedicated thread sometime.

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.

Now, don´t ask me why hearing of such appeared plausible to me spontaneously, as that would be a vague mixture of general physics with layman´s pondering, but take a listen to the clip here yourself.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/p4016-2012-pepe-romero-cdin.html

If this a fully articulate guitar or what is it?
-

Naturally, it could be more due to the overal building talents of the man than to bracing patterns, but it wouldn´t surprise me if such bracing would only help the output of an extremely well voiced and balanced specimen.

Ruphus

PS:
I would love to hear how a blanca of such build would sound.



C. Vega -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 13:45:48)

This type of bracing was being used long before the Rodriguez example that inspired the young Pepster.
The Spanish born - Argentina based maker Jose Yacopi (1916-2006) began using it in the late 1940s and continued with it for his best guitars for many years.

The Yacopi operation evolved into a factory in Buenos Aries that is currently under the direction of Jose's son Fernando.



Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 14:04:29)

Thank your for the info, Charles!
Why has this way of bracing seen so little attention / usage?

Ruphus



C. Vega -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 14:07:45)

I have no idea.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 15:37:24)

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the sound-hole.


Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.



C. Vega -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 15:41:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.


Isn't that what I just said three posts ago? Duh. [8|]



keith -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 15:50:46)

tom, are you saying the point of convergence, if you will, is at the tail block? that is, the struts are closer to each other at the tail block and farther from each other as one moves towards the soundhole?



koenie17 -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 16:57:10)

only 12000$[:-][:-]



Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 17:03:55)

The R. Dynasty has its standards, and San Diego is just as beautiful as it is expensive ... ( First time I notice that he moved from their Spanish domicile, which must be a great place to live in.)

But seriously, I agree.
Such is through the roof, even for top notch.

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 17:40:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

tom, are you saying the point of convergence, if you will, is at the tail block? that is, the struts are closer to each other at the tail block and farther from each other as one moves towards the sound-hole?


Yes Sir, closer together at the tail block.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 17:42:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Actually the braces are reversed and radiate from the bottom block of the guitar, something that has been done before Miguel Rodriguez.


Isn't that what I just said three posts ago? Duh. [8|]


I apologize your majesty, I didn't see your post until later.



el carbonero -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 18:10:29)

paco has record his last disc with a conde hermanos guitar .

Never with that .

This is lies commercial



Leñador -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 18:41:05)

Guitars are listed in the credits:

Tony Morales
Lester Devoe
Pepe Romero
Hermanos Conde

Estas diciendo que Paco es un mentiroso? O es una conspiracion?
Sabes el "Duff Man" de los Simpsons??? Tu eres como el "Duff Man" por Conde lolol



tri7/5 -> [Deleted] (May 5 2014 19:34:48)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2014 19:35:29



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 20:09:45)

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.


I just watched the video and PR said that the fan braces fan out from the tail end of the soundboard, not from the bridge.

Oops, sorry, everyone knows that already.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 20:18:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

As I just learned from the GSI site, Pepe followed a structural concept from Miguel Rodriguez that uses a bracing pattern radiating from the bridge instead of from the soundhole.


I just watched the video and PR said that the fan braces fan out from the tail end of the soundboard, not from the bridge.

Oops, sorry, everyone knows that already.



Ethan, you are a funny guy! Hope everything is well with you.....



Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 5 2014 20:48:43)

On the side I linked to above they wrote:
quote:

... a reverse fan system (fans radiating from the bridge area, rather than from the soundhole)...

Thanks for correcting me, and now that I see that we are talking some cm further dorsal: A builder of mucho flamenco sounding guitars told me of his special approach in the exact same region.
... Who knows, could be there´s the G-point of that thing. :O|

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 0:47:47)

The real question is not where the fan braces point, but how thick is the top with those braces and how is the bridge shaped and at what stage is it glued on etc.
Antonio Moya showed me his guitar made by a famous builder, and the braces go across the top as a 45 degree angle. It's a super guitar, and it's not a Conde'-

The reason the Yacopi design has not caught on is because very few builders take it on as a project to learn how to make. Most designs will work if you take the time to build several of them and learn how to put them together. They all have subtle differences and the Yacopi is almost esoteric by comparison to the Torres 'kite' set up of fan braces going the opposite direction pointed towards the sound hole. The differences in the basic structure make it a bit intimidating for builders unless you have the cojones to wander out into the unknown and the patience to deal wiht players who tell you it's wrong.


It's one of those things that would be fun to blind test. Ask the player to tell the difference between Conde's and non Conde's- Blancas and Nergras and Yacopis and other non standard bracing from Torres bracing.

If someone did that and the blind test was conducted well the result would likely be that you can't tell the difference between any of it without reading labels. Players would just end up showing which individual guitars they like better.

I'd for sure put one of my guitars into that blind test.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 1:05:55)

quote:

The real question is not where the fan braces point, but how thick is the top with those braces and how is the bridge shaped and at what stage is it glued on etc.


I tend to agree that the bracing layout pattern is not so important as far as sound is concerned.

However, I think the traditional patterns radiating from around the 12th fret or thereabouts gives some important structural support between the bridge and the sound hole that would be diminished with the fan braces radiating from the tail. I have seen enough guitars that have collapsed in this area with string tension on the bridge.



Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 1:22:08)

Ethan,

When I picture it in mind it appears as if tail oriented bundling would result into more support in the bridge to soundhole region, not less.

It seems to me like shifting the stiff section from around the soundhole towards the bridge.

Ruphus



Leñador -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 1:38:48)

quote:

It's one of those things that would be fun to blind test. Ask the player to tell the difference between Conde's and non Conde's- Blancas and Nergras and Yacopis and other non standard bracing from Torres bracing.

If someone did that and the blind test was conducted well the result would likely be that you can't tell the difference between any of it without reading labels. Players would just end up showing which individual guitars they like better.


We talked about something like this in that other thread about violins. I'd love to see this…..Maybe GSI wouldn't but I think Trilogy might be willing, the owners a pretty cool guy.



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 1:42:42)

I am thinking that B has more support between the bridge and the sound hole than A.



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estebanana -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 4:33:57)

I think the one on the left has nice hips & booty. You must be an assman. [:D][:D][:D]




Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 10:29:50)

It needed be a Lopez bottom to allow Ethan sufficiently spread his struts.
But it won´t work out easy. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/02/jennifer-lopez-butt-implants_n_5254696.html [:D]


Any of you guys listened to Pepe´s clip?
Though my personal taste gravitates to something more hoarse ( which I assume is mainly a question of set up / would still be doable), and preferring blanca characteristics anyway, I am seriously impressed by the fat, round tone and eveness accross the register. Substance and fully retained notes galore.

And it seems outstanding to me how lush and separating in the same time this guitar sounds.
Maybe it won´t cut through the noise of a juerga that well, but it should certainly excell for solo guitar / instrumentals.

I am so impressed by its sonic footprint that I´ve tried several times to access and listen again, but have been unable for now.
-

While reconsidering, I guess I wouldn´t always be delighted to see folks pointing out works of colleagues to me if I was a luthier. But this case is meant in the sense of sharing impressions and assuming the generousity of sincere appreciation for good work.

I know that you guys have reason to be self-confident enough and that you can be very generous and appreciative towards your guilds achievements.
-

Seeing Stephen´s explanation of how it takes experimenting to exploit another construction like this one, I think it only fits that someone like Pepe Romero went after it. I guess his living conditions may allow easily for the luxury of investing funds and time for an uncoventional concept. ( + having had the chance to come across a M. Rodriguez of that kind and be taken by it enough in the first place.)

Ruphus



estebanana -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 12:22:08)

quote:

eeing Stephen´s explanation of how it takes experimenting to exploit another construction like this one, I think it only fits that someone like Pepe Romero went after it. I guess his living conditions may allow easily for the luxury of investing funds and time for an uncoventional concept. ( + having had the chance to come across a M. Rodriguez of that kind and be taken by it enough in the first place.)


I think he's a good guitar maker, and you are correct, he and his family have an extensive collection of guitars to study and that can never hurt. I understand he learned a lot from Dake Traphagen who is also a fine maker.

But I doubt it is easy even coming from a guitar minded family, it still takes drive and hard work. It's like Gitanos, just about every kid can dance or play some guitar if they try, but to become a top artist they still have to put in many years and hours.

Hoping Ethan is down with Sienfeld jokes....



constructordeguitarras -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 13:00:44)

Stephen--
You mean it shows? I was concerned about my poor drawings.
Yes, when I had a television last, Seinfeld was one of the shows I watched.



Ricardo -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 13:57:47)

apparently this was done by Yacopi in argentina long before Rodriguez. He was drunk and glued the sticks wrong but it sounded better.

Oh wait did someone say that already?



Ruphus -> RE: Bridge-centered bracing (May 6 2014 16:16:36)

Nah. [8|]

Actually if my name was Yacopi it could be true. Sometimes I fiddle things absent in mind that are hard to believe.
Just to think of all the models I had to free from gispum with a hammer in the dental laboratory, after been absent minded once again.
At that time rightly so though, with spectacular babes robbing me hours of sleep.

- Today instead it rather be nursing jobs for battered pets that take my time.
Hopefully no lasting change of occupation.

Ruphus



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