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Dani de Moron
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Dani de Moron (in reply to Ailsa)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ailsa
Oh right, it's actually Solea, not SpB? My ears deceive me! I've got some old recordings of Solea which are quite fast and it's easy to confuse them. Has romerito got it? He's a bit of flamenco academic, I wouldn't be surprised 
We talked about this in an old thread. When it comes to guitar or dance, the speed and groove tell you if it is "solea por buleria", not what is being sung necessarily. There is no cante called "solea por buleria". That is more an "aire" of the overall interp of what could be several styles of solea (Alcala juaquin 1 2 3, jerez frijones 2, Cadiz mellizo, Triana, etc) or buleria larga, buleria corta etc etc....
So when someone is asking for which cante, the speed or key the guitar plays in is secondary and should not influence your "guess". 
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Apr. 29 2010 14:14:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Dani de Moron (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
If you had been playing in E (relatively) I bet you would have caught it which again brings up the question, does key matter?
I did do it in E (por arriba) the third and 4th posts, after I did Por medio. Probably I accompanied more or less the same, but overall it sounds different because of the key. EDIT (Ok I see what you mean like in the first letra I do resolve 4,5,6 to E in the Arriba example, where por medio I chose to let the Bb ring for those 3 beats.)
And so somebody else's upload accompanying the same cante would help better then talking about it. If my resolutions ever seem "late" it is because I am playing it very safe by following the singer rather then anticipating, because if you follow the long thread from the beginning, I was making a point to record after as few takes as possible, so not to make an "arrangement" for the singing, since in practice with live singer the art of accomp is about following, not working it all out. Hard to do when playing with a recording rather then a live person.
I think this cut was from the sabor de jerez 3 family collection (Morena, Zambo, Moneo mostly bulerias), but I am not sure. Anyway the guitar free track was loaded by Florian I think on page 8. It would be cool if you have the teacher do it, or show you specifically how he would accompany that track to produce a different "aire" then what I was doing, as a comparison. To be clear, that would mean uploading TWO different versions in the SAME key, one with aire of "solea" (right or wrong) and the other aire of Solea por buleria, showing they are different, yet same key and same tempo. I would not care if both uploads are Arriba or both are pro medio, but they need to be the same key in order to understand the subtle differences.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 30 2010 12:27:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Dani de Moron (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
It is not your experience or knowledge we are discussing, but the possibility of different practices in the past that have either died out or are are not as popular.
Well, as a never ending student myself, I would actually like to learn these details and implement them or at least be able to listen out for them in old recordings.
quote:
That would be great but probably unlikely. But I'll try to get him to go for it.
At least have him teach YOU some details about it so you can show us with your own demo OR give us an old recording example that shows these "lost" details of aire. I don't think it's too much to ask him, and I think it is real important and interesting.
quote:
Anyway, another thing that I noticed you did not do but that does get done is accenting the 12 in such a way that it seems like the beginning instead of the ending.
I know what you mean, and I honestly thought I DID do it quite a few times, but true not always. Both in the por medio and in the Arriba versions. Especially when the compas of the singing feels "crossed" I noticed myself wacking the 12 pretty hard to keep grounded myself. But the slow tempo might make it feel like an ending accent to the outside listener? I don't know, but try playing it yourself and you will see what I mean. It is uncomfortably slow to feel as "buleria" throughout, at least for me, but there are a couple spots it works fine. Anyway that is why I felt more comfortable playing Arriba then por medio with this, because my personal toque has issues with doing por medio real slow. I think it is a mental thing on my part since I am not used to it. But all the old players played por medio fast all the time too so???
quote:
When I have chosen to play por medio he without fail screams that I am playing solea por buleria, regardless of tempo.
We have to ask why his perception is such that those tonos por medio scream SxB and not solea.
I honestly feel it is because like I say, the key gives most of the "aire" we are talking about that makes a difference. So in that sense I sort of agree with him, but at the same time I personally don't feel that the difference is "wrong" to do. Likewise, nowadays you can play solea in a number of weird tonalities with open tunings and such that produce new exotic "aire". But perhaps the dance has learned through the years that when guitarists play "por medio" they tend to increase the speed because it is more comfortable to do so because of the details of the toque. And we know how dancers get when you don't keep the tempo where they want it! So pehaps he hears the key and thinks "uh oh, I dont' want that toque for THIS solea!!" because of past experience.
Anyway I experienced the same exact problem with one dancer who was not so old either. But she wanted a "slow-lea" so again the only thought came to me was her fear we would all speed up along the way because of the toque. But who knows.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 1 2010 9:07:15
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