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Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar.
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captain yesterday
Posts: 7
Joined: Jan. 18 2012
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 Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar.
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Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and needing some advice please.
To give you a bit of background, i've been mucking about with guitars for a while then a year ago started to play classical/flemenco styles of guitar. Since then i have merged many styles into my playing but i take alot from Flemenco techniques and rythyms. I understand that typically flemenco guitars have low action and therefore fretbuzz is common and not an issue. I started on a cheap washburn classical and didn't really have any issues, great starter guitar. I wanted to upgrade recently and out of about 20 guitars, i finally thought i had found the 'one'. After taking it home,amping it up etc while playing my style i've had serious issues with fretbuzz and when amplified it's really bad.
I've tried playing guitars worth miles more and had the same problem if not even worse. I bought a Lagg TN66ACE,it's really a beatifull guitar so i've tried to get the shop to help. The guy who owns it has cambered the neck almost as far as it can go which has resulted in a huge action, i know this could be lowered and doesn't really bother me eitherways. However i still have fretbuzz allbeit grately reduced since the guitars been worked on, generally around the 5-8th or so and it's driving me crazy.. the guitars spent more time in the shop than in my hands. I've found a Cort ACC15F that is alot better but i've not fallen for it the same way and i don't think the owner of the shop while knowledgable doesn't really understands my style and needs to set it up any better. I've had big problems finding a teacher for the same reason, i had a trial lesson last week where I had to teach HIM how to play some of the techniques i use. It seems to be with my upstrokes i have the worst buzzing, i realise this is dependant on angle of playing as well but personally i don't think that's the issue. I'm dying to break this guitar in properly and get recording my material or if push comes to shove ditch it and go for the uglier and more expensive but better set up off the shelf alternative in the Cort.
Any feedback,seasoned opinions,general banter,condolences,or psychiatric help would be greatly appreciated!
Cheers, J
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Date Jan. 18 2012 4:54:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9368
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action.
Maybe for other reason, like loose braces?
Close and a good idea, but string excursion is the amount the string travels on it's path back and forth when you pluck it.
The string vibrates in this trapezoidal shape, you think it's simply going back and forth and moving the farthest distance right in the middle of the string, but it's also traveling wider around the 5th fret and around where you pluck it with your right thumb. When you pluck the string at the bridge it sets up a wave pattern that is mirrored at the opposite end of the neck, you pluck at the bridge the string wants to express that pulling motion at the same exact spot on the other end of the string.
This is why a scoop of relief is put into the neck, it it to accommodate that trapezoidal motion pattern. The relief in the neck is put in somewhere around the 4th to 9th frets and eased out to the first and 12th frets. it is very small amount, often on flamenco guitars you can get away with nothing and the pull of the strings setup the relief. It is not an exact science either because every guitar top/bridge combo will let the string throw out farther or lesser depending on a lot of factors. Flexibility of the top, arch height, neck angle, bracing, kind of strings, action all come into play with string excursion.
Just when you thought it was easy to set up an action the guitar literally throws you a curve ball!
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 18 2012 20:29:28
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action.
Maybe for other reason, like loose braces?
Close and a good idea, but string excursion is the amount the string travels on it's path back and forth when you pluck it.
The string vibrates in this trapezoidal shape, you think it's simply going back and forth and moving the farthest distance right in the middle of the string, but it's also traveling wider around the 5th fret and around where you pluck it with your right thumb. When you pluck the string at the bridge it sets up a wave pattern that is mirrored at the opposite end of the neck, you pluck at the bridge the string wants to express that pulling motion at the same exact spot on the other end of the string.
This is why a scoop of relief is put into the neck, it it to accommodate that trapezoidal motion pattern. The relief in the neck is put in somewhere around the 4th to 9th frets and eased out to the first and 12th frets. it is very small amount, often on flamenco guitars you can get away with nothing and the pull of the strings setup the relief. It is not an exact science either because every guitar top/bridge combo will let the string throw out farther or lesser depending on a lot of factors. Flexibility of the top, arch height, neck angle, bracing, kind of strings, action all come into play with string excursion.
Just when you thought it was easy to set up an action the guitar literally throws you a curve ball!
One other point, width wise ( if I can say so).
Sometime somewhere I mentioned how Matthias Damman described how the sound of a guitar wouldn´t be fully uitlized, when strings being hit too much vertically instead of perpendicular to the top.
Someone then, in reaction to my post, noted that in fact strings oscillation would peak perpendicular when hit vertically.
That appeared absurd to me.
Remembering his remark a while afterwards and trying things out, it however appeared indeed as if he was right. It looks as if there be much rather fret buzzing when the string is hit hard vertically. Unlike when hit perpendiculary to the top, in the way I would had expected.
Life just likes to puzzle you.
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 19 2012 11:17:35
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captain yesterday
Posts: 7
Joined: Jan. 18 2012
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RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (in reply to Ricardo)
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In reply to your explanation (which was more confirmation but i didn't want to jump the gun in my reply). Thank you for explaining that so eloquently, first of all as for the spelling. I've been extremly ill for a while now, and haven't slept in a while if you look at the time i posted it, it was about 5.49 am (GMT), and it's something that was bothering me for a while so i wanted to carpe diem! My guitar playing's one of the few things that keeps me going throughout everything. Also i find people don't share knowledge enough and are too intimadated by people like you,and realised what a wealth of experiance and talent this place has so i took the step (stagger). However thanks for pointing out my insulting flaws.
I've been trying various things for a while, and i thought approaching this forum with a humble attitude would help clear up some of the problems, which it did. I explained that it was a cheap guitar, and that i knew it wasn't set up for that style and what i'm playing isn't traditional by any means. No body plays Flemenco around me, and i've quickly come to learn even the recommended shops don't really have a clue. Also that i wasn't anywhere near being an expert and asked for "seasoned" opinions. I also explained that i didn't want to muck about with the bone as i was looking for a way to fix the guitar without changing something that would stop me being able to return it if i still didn't get the desired results, and it wasn't worth spending the money on that as the guitars not worth the cost . I also explained that i'd tried more expensive traditional guitars and that i'd had the same problem. However i had found 1 or 2 that worked well and weren't traditional,hence trying my best to find if there was a plausible soloution to stop me having to return the one i've had worked on and fell in love with.
Also if i had this knowledge i wouldn't be asking these questions, life is a pursuit of knowledge and when learning to walk you can come across as a bit naive! As for the dedication pro's have put into the art, i totally appreciate that and it's why despite everything i've put in so much work even to get to my level or the rediculous lengths i've went to even be able to buy this "cheap" guitar.
I find the fact that i don't spell something properly an insult a bit pathetic to be honest, if i didn't have respect for the instrument or it's art form i wouldn't be going to such extreme lengths to find a plausible way forward. Not to say i don't want to be able to play and own a traditional "expensive" Flamenco guitar and play and understand the style, it's been a dream of mine since i heard Paco de Lucía and Juan Martin for the first time! If i implied Cliche's which everyone does daily mostly without realising, then you could have educated me instead of using a snide remark to mock and belittle me , because at the end of the day that's why i'm here!
I find your no hard feelings remark rather comical after your statement, it's like spitting on someone then shaking thier hand. I really hope you don't teach people because as much as i respect the dedication and obvious skill you have on the guitar, you have a serious arrogance/attitude problem. That being said, no hard feelings =).. and Merry Christmas (i also suffer from post-mature congratulation and terminal sarcasm).
To everyone else who posted thank you very much! You have been very gratious and helpfull admist my obvious lack of knowledge and use of grammar. I think some other people have recieved good advice through this as well which is a bonus! I hope to catch up with you soon in the forum,and get a custom built guitar from one of the many fine craftsman here when i have more money and i've had more time to play traditionally,improve that, and learn more about Flamenco in general. I hope you can continue to help me in that,and hopefully in part i can help others too!
Muchos Gracias, Carpe Diem!
_____________________________
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help.
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Date Jan. 19 2012 18:30:43
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Ricardo
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (in reply to captain yesterday)
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quote:
No body plays Flemenco around me, and...
Please say you did that on purpose to be funny man... 
quote:
I also explained that i didn't want to muck about with the bone as i was looking for a way to fix the guitar without changing something that would stop me being able to return it if i still didn't get the desired results, and it wasn't worth spending the money on that as the guitars not worth the cost .
Bone blanks are cheap, like 10 bucks. You file it yourself at home. Has to be perfect flat as you can to make full contact to piezo...but most low end acoustic electric are not perfect balanced anyway. You can only tell at super high volume though. Anyway you keep the original bone if you need to sell guitar back. It's pretty easy to change out. Action really is so simple a thing to deal with but a lot of players don't realize how easy it is to change at home. Its strange how action can really determine the sale of a guitar but it's the easiest thing to alter in most cases.
quote:
If i implied Cliche's which everyone does daily mostly without realising, then you could have educated me instead of using a snide remark to mock and belittle me , because at the end of the day that's why i'm here!
That was my point...to let you know since you asked. And I was not the one who made the mocking comment...it was estebanana and as you can tell by his foro name, he likes making fun with spanglish misspellings (his name being steven, or esteban in spanish coupled with banana cuz it's funny sounding).
quote:
I find your no hard feelings remark rather comical after your statement, it's like spitting on someone then shaking thier hand. I really hope you don't teach people because as much as i respect the dedication and obvious skill you have on the guitar, you have a serious arrogance/attitude problem. That being said, no hard feelings =).. and Merry Christmas (i also suffer from post-mature congratulation and terminal sarcasm).
Well, sorry you feel that way....again I was the one pointing out the "inside joke" to you. The more political thing perhaps would have been to remain silent and enjoy the little "fakemenco" joke. But I felt to simply inform you in case you are serious about going deeper into the art form. There is a lot more hazing then some play on words jokes as you get more serious. I am not a big fan of letting newcomers "figure it out for themselves the hard way like we all did". Maybe because, yes hate to say it, I AM a teacher.  Damn my ego!!! 
Good luck to you anyway amigo.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 20 2012 13:35:07
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Guest
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RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (in reply to captain yesterday)
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quote:
This guitar will cost you about 250.00 on eBay
make sure the back stripe is symmetrically placed....even at this price.
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Date Jan. 21 2012 3:52:03
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