Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Full Version)

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captain yesterday -> Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 4:54:09)

Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and needing some advice please.

To give you a bit of background, i've been mucking about with guitars for a while then a year ago started to play classical/flemenco styles of guitar. Since then i have merged many styles into my playing but i take alot from Flemenco techniques and rythyms. I understand that typically flemenco guitars have low action and therefore fretbuzz is common and not an issue. I started on a cheap washburn classical and didn't really have any issues, great starter guitar. I wanted to upgrade recently and out of about 20 guitars, i finally thought i had found the 'one'. After taking it home,amping it up etc while playing my style i've had serious issues with fretbuzz and when amplified it's really bad.

I've tried playing guitars worth miles more and had the same problem if not even worse. I bought a Lagg TN66ACE,it's really a beatifull guitar so i've tried to get the shop to help. The guy who owns it has cambered the neck almost as far as it can go which has resulted in a huge action, i know this could be lowered and doesn't really bother me eitherways. However i still have fretbuzz allbeit grately reduced since the guitars been worked on, generally around the 5-8th or so and it's driving me crazy.. the guitars spent more time in the shop than in my hands. I've found a Cort ACC15F that is alot better but i've not fallen for it the same way and i don't think the owner of the shop while knowledgable doesn't really understands my style and needs to set it up any better. I've had big problems finding a teacher for the same reason, i had a trial lesson last week where I had to teach HIM how to play some of the techniques i use. It seems to be with my upstrokes i have the worst buzzing, i realise this is dependant on angle of playing as well but personally i don't think that's the issue. I'm dying to break this guitar in properly and get recording my material or if push comes to shove ditch it and go for the uglier and more expensive but better set up off the shelf alternative in the Cort.

Any feedback,seasoned opinions,general banter,condolences,or psychiatric help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers, J



Stephen Eden -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 11:54:29)

what is the action out of interest? The guitat looks more like a steel string. I wonder if its setup like one. A non buzzy action is for me around 4mm on the bass and 3 on the treble (this still buzzes when played very hard though. A slightly buzzy action is 3mm on the bass and 2.5 on the treble. measured at the 12th fret.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 18 2012 14:07:38)

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Stephen Eden -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 14:52:17)

Thats not really true RumbaKing, A good Luthier can mearly optimise the set up. some guitars buzz more than others, sometimes due to poor fretwork but that is very rarely the case. I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action. Naturally it has never entered the public domain and resides hidden in my workshop.

I think you must have been lucky with your Hnos. Sanshis Lopez. I have seen many that have the 3mm-2.5mm action and buzz fairly easily



Ruphus -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 17:16:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action.


Maybe for other reason, like loose braces?

Ruphus



captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 19:26:13)

First of all thanks for all your replies i really appreciate the input. To answer your question Eden i'd say the bass is about 5.. maybe tiny bit less, the trebles are about 4. The guitar off the shelf has a much lower action but the necks so bent/cambered by the shop owner to try and eliminate buzz it raised the action at the same time I realise this is a high action and i can lower it but it's not a major issue.

Also the guy who works in the shop is by no means a luthier sorry if i didn't make that clear, he's an experianced musician who owns a traditional music store. He's played classical for a long time, and knows how to alter necks etc... but is perplexed as most are by my style and how to compensate to eliminate my problems. The guitar in question is made by Lagg who have a very good record of setting up guitars so i doubt any brace problems, it might just be that it's never going to be able to cope with my style, which seems to be the case with almost every store bought guitar.. apart from maybe the Cort,the guitar does have a very thin neck for a nylon string and body. I really want to try any possibilities to keep this guitar, you know what it's like when you fall in love.

Cheers.



estebanana -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 20:21:37)

quote:

I have an Hermanos Sanchis Lopez with low action 2.1 basses and 2.0 trebles @ 12th fret and I have zero buzz on any fret no matter how hard I push the guitar.....


Yep I second that Eden says, some guitars naturally have a wider string excursion than others. And some guitars have a narrower string excursion that is just intrinsic to that guitar. Getting basses down to 2.1 with zero buzz is not always possible on every guitar. An action just a hair under 3mm on the basses and 2.5 on the treble side is about average for most guitars.



estebanana -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 20:29:28)

quote:

I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action.



Maybe for other reason, like loose braces?


Close and a good idea, but string excursion is the amount the string travels on it's path back and forth when you pluck it.

The string vibrates in this trapezoidal shape, you think it's simply going back and forth and moving the farthest distance right in the middle of the string, but it's also traveling wider around the 5th fret and around where you pluck it with your right thumb. When you pluck the string at the bridge it sets up a wave pattern that is mirrored at the opposite end of the neck, you pluck at the bridge the string wants to express that pulling motion at the same exact spot on the other end of the string.

This is why a scoop of relief is put into the neck, it it to accommodate that trapezoidal motion pattern. The relief in the neck is put in somewhere around the 4th to 9th frets and eased out to the first and 12th frets. it is very small amount, often on flamenco guitars you can get away with nothing and the pull of the strings setup the relief. It is not an exact science either because every guitar top/bridge combo will let the string throw out farther or lesser depending on a lot of factors. Flexibility of the top, arch height, neck angle, bracing, kind of strings, action all come into play with string excursion.

Just when you thought it was easy to set up an action the guitar literally throws you a curve ball!



Ricardo -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 22:09:07)

probably check your "style" and technique first...second the bone can be raised or replaced so it is higher...and 3rd get a better guitar that is set up properly.



mezzo -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 18 2012 22:22:20)

quote:

I have an Hermanos Sanchis Lopez with low action 2.1 basses and 2.0 trebles @ 12th fret and I have zero buzz on any fret no matter how hard I push the guitar.....

hey king i don't want to tell BS but it seems to me that once you posted a vid of you playin with your sanchis and it buzz like hell!
Maybe it's my bad memory or something. I'm gonna check if I could found it [;)]



Shawn Brock -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 0:28:22)

Okay... I'm reluctant to say anything, but here goes...

For me guitars which have more narrow/ smaller frets always buzz more than I like. I like some buzz on my E and A in the bass, and no buzz for the bottom 4 strings unless the guitar is pushed somewhat hard.

This is my problem with some of the Condes I have played. With the small frets, I can't get the guitar close to topping out. I push it and it gives me all it has quickly. And before anyone starts anything, I have no problem with Condes, I just don't care much for some of the new ones... At least not when playing picado.

Give me large/ jumbo frets any day... For me the guitar just plays better with them... What can I say, I crossed over from the steel string world, so just shoot me...

Perhaps the thickness/ size of the frets is what's bothering you Captain Yesterday? If this is the case you should look for another guitar, because by the time the action on this one is high enough to not buzz, it will be to high to play.



captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 2:45:24)

Thanks Ricardo, You're first point is very valid in general.. and i know for a fact some of the techniques i play and how i want them to sound is part of my problem but i know there's guitars that can handle it. The action isn't the problem, that's why i haven't bothered lowering it yet. Your third point is the one i've came to with everyones advice, it's just hard leaving a guitar i really like and shelling out more cash but if i can get a guitar that plays through a p.a without rattling everyones fillings out i guess it's worth it =).



captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 2:51:19)

Thanks Shawn, i think you might have a point about the neck .. not that it bothers me i love the neck, but it's probably not designed for the punishment i give it resulting in more buzz. I don't want any buzz on any strings or frets because when i'm playing at speed or vigour it would make it impossible to amp up or record, most flemenco seems to be played unamplified traditionally, with claps etc so it's not an issue but for me it is. The action doesn't bother me , but i don't think i could get it much higher as alot of players would struggle already at the level it's at, i could live with it if it would stop buzzing as i'm strong and i love the guitar so much. I think i'll shell out more cash for the cort, and change the ugly tuning keys. C'est las vie, the pretty ones are always no good for you!



estebanana -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 3:08:20)

quote:

most flemenco seems to be played unamplified traditionally


phlegmenco



Jeff Highland -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 3:31:46)

quote:

The guy who owns it has cambered the neck almost as far as it can go which has resulted in a huge action,


I suspect that this is at least part of the problem.
He has taken the easy way out with a turn of an Allen wrench, dialed in a lot of relief which gives an apparent high action, but the strings are then climbing out of a hole once you get to the 5th fret onwards.
You will probably need to straighten the neck to minimal relief and then raise the saddle height



captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 4:08:33)

Cheers Jeff,

I think you're at least in part right. However after all the work i've had done on it and the fact i'd have to send it away to pay a decent amount to have any chance of it being sorted,and possibly risk doing all that and still having frett buzz i think i'm going to have to give up on the guitar. If i had more money to spend i'd get a custom built guitar exactly to the specifications,who knows if i can get some good recordings and gigs that could soon be a possibility! In the meantime, i'm going to have to shop around for something that will last me till then without me spending weeks trying to fix problems. Almost every guitar i've tried has this problem, i've tried guitars that traditional players really love and worth alot of cash but they buzz like hell with my style so i'm not interested.



captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 4:11:22)

Phlegmenco?



Ruphus -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 11:17:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I built a guitar a year ago that just likes to buzz even with a high action.



Maybe for other reason, like loose braces?


Close and a good idea, but string excursion is the amount the string travels on it's path back and forth when you pluck it.

The string vibrates in this trapezoidal shape, you think it's simply going back and forth and moving the farthest distance right in the middle of the string, but it's also traveling wider around the 5th fret and around where you pluck it with your right thumb. When you pluck the string at the bridge it sets up a wave pattern that is mirrored at the opposite end of the neck, you pluck at the bridge the string wants to express that pulling motion at the same exact spot on the other end of the string.

This is why a scoop of relief is put into the neck, it it to accommodate that trapezoidal motion pattern. The relief in the neck is put in somewhere around the 4th to 9th frets and eased out to the first and 12th frets. it is very small amount, often on flamenco guitars you can get away with nothing and the pull of the strings setup the relief. It is not an exact science either because every guitar top/bridge combo will let the string throw out farther or lesser depending on a lot of factors. Flexibility of the top, arch height, neck angle, bracing, kind of strings, action all come into play with string excursion.

Just when you thought it was easy to set up an action the guitar literally throws you a curve ball!


One other point, width wise ( if I can say so).
Sometime somewhere I mentioned how Matthias Damman described how the sound of a guitar wouldn´t be fully uitlized, when strings being hit too much vertically instead of perpendicular to the top.
Someone then, in reaction to my post, noted that in fact strings oscillation would peak perpendicular when hit vertically.
That appeared absurd to me.

Remembering his remark a while afterwards and trying things out, it however appeared indeed as if he was right. It looks as if there be much rather fret buzzing when the string is hit hard vertically. Unlike when hit perpendiculary to the top, in the way I would had expected.

Life just likes to puzzle you.

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 13:45:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: captain yesterday

Phlegmenco?



well, you miss spell "flamenco" several times in your first post (a BIG disrespect to people that have devoted some portion of their time to studying this andalucian art at it's deeper levels, implying cliche American misconceptions about the art form), describe frustration with what flamenco pros consider both a "cheap" guitar and plus, not a proper flamenco instrument based on design and set up, and then describe un imaginable repair attempts (changing neck angle via truss rod rather then simply changing bone saddle) by self respecting flamenco guitar luthier standards.

So basically your assumed style of playing (spanishy influenced classical or new age stuff) and basic misconceptions of the toque flamenco (proper traditional flamenco guitar playing and all that goes with it) are being, well, poked fun of a little. That's all. [:D]
No hard feelings really, just hope that clears up the phlamengooo question.



XXX -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 14:10:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I have an Hermanos Sanchis Lopez with low action 2.1 basses and 2.0 trebles @ 12th fret and I have zero buzz on any fret no matter how hard I push the guitar.....


Yep I second that Eden says, some guitars naturally have a wider string excursion than others. And some guitars have a narrower string excursion that is just intrinsic to that guitar.


Can a Luthier deliberately build a guitar with lot of string excursion?
Basically it would mean that the tension is low, isnt it?

quote:

The action doesn't bother me , but i don't think i could get it much higher as alot of players would struggle already at the level it's at


I guess they wont play it anyway, its your guitar and you are playing it, right? So you should know if a higher action would be a struggle or not (for you).



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 19 2012 15:09:39)

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captain yesterday -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 19 2012 18:30:43)

In reply to your explanation (which was more confirmation but i didn't want to jump the gun in my reply). Thank you for explaining that so eloquently, first of all as for the spelling. I've been extremly ill for a while now, and haven't slept in a while if you look at the time i posted it, it was about 5.49 am (GMT), and it's something that was bothering me for a while so i wanted to carpe diem! My guitar playing's one of the few things that keeps me going throughout everything. Also i find people don't share knowledge enough and are too intimadated by people like you,and realised what a wealth of experiance and talent this place has so i took the step (stagger). However thanks for pointing out my insulting flaws.

I've been trying various things for a while, and i thought approaching this forum with a humble attitude would help clear up some of the problems, which it did. I explained that it was a cheap guitar, and that i knew it wasn't set up for that style and what i'm playing isn't traditional by any means. No body plays Flemenco around me, and i've quickly come to learn even the recommended shops don't really have a clue. Also that i wasn't anywhere near being an expert and asked for "seasoned" opinions. I also explained that i didn't want to muck about with the bone as i was looking for a way to fix the guitar without changing something that would stop me being able to return it if i still didn't get the desired results, and it wasn't worth spending the money on that as the guitars not worth the cost . I also explained that i'd tried more expensive traditional guitars and that i'd had the same problem. However i had found 1 or 2 that worked well and weren't traditional,hence trying my best to find if there was a plausible soloution to stop me having to return the one i've had worked on and fell in love with.

Also if i had this knowledge i wouldn't be asking these questions, life is a pursuit of knowledge and when learning to walk you can come across as a bit naive! As for the dedication pro's have put into the art, i totally appreciate that and it's why despite everything i've put in so much work even to get to my level or the rediculous lengths i've went to even be able to buy this "cheap" guitar.

I find the fact that i don't spell something properly an insult a bit pathetic to be honest, if i didn't have respect for the instrument or it's art form i wouldn't be going to such extreme lengths to find a plausible way forward. Not to say i don't want to be able to play and own a traditional "expensive" Flamenco guitar and play and understand the style, it's been a dream of mine since i heard Paco de Lucía and Juan Martin for the first time! If i implied Cliche's which everyone does daily mostly without realising, then you could have educated me instead of using a snide remark to mock and belittle me , because at the end of the day that's why i'm here!

I find your no hard feelings remark rather comical after your statement, it's like spitting on someone then shaking thier hand. I really hope you don't teach people because as much as i respect the dedication and obvious skill you have on the guitar, you have a serious arrogance/attitude problem. That being said, no hard feelings =).. and Merry Christmas (i also suffer from post-mature congratulation and terminal sarcasm).

To everyone else who posted thank you very much! You have been very gratious and helpfull admist my obvious lack of knowledge and use of grammar. I think some other people have recieved good advice through this as well which is a bonus! I hope to catch up with you soon in the forum,and get a custom built guitar from one of the many fine craftsman here when i have more money and i've had more time to play traditionally,improve that, and learn more about Flamenco in general. I hope you can continue to help me in that,and hopefully in part i can help others too!

Muchos Gracias, Carpe Diem!



Ricardo -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 20 2012 13:35:07)

quote:

No body plays Flemenco around me, and...


Please say you did that on purpose to be funny man...[&:]
quote:

I also explained that i didn't want to muck about with the bone as i was looking for a way to fix the guitar without changing something that would stop me being able to return it if i still didn't get the desired results, and it wasn't worth spending the money on that as the guitars not worth the cost .


Bone blanks are cheap, like 10 bucks. You file it yourself at home. Has to be perfect flat as you can to make full contact to piezo...but most low end acoustic electric are not perfect balanced anyway. You can only tell at super high volume though. Anyway you keep the original bone if you need to sell guitar back. It's pretty easy to change out. Action really is so simple a thing to deal with but a lot of players don't realize how easy it is to change at home. Its strange how action can really determine the sale of a guitar but it's the easiest thing to alter in most cases.

quote:

If i implied Cliche's which everyone does daily mostly without realising, then you could have educated me instead of using a snide remark to mock and belittle me , because at the end of the day that's why i'm here!


That was my point...to let you know since you asked. And I was not the one who made the mocking comment...it was estebanana and as you can tell by his foro name, he likes making fun with spanglish misspellings (his name being steven, or esteban in spanish coupled with banana cuz it's funny sounding).

quote:

I find your no hard feelings remark rather comical after your statement, it's like spitting on someone then shaking thier hand. I really hope you don't teach people because as much as i respect the dedication and obvious skill you have on the guitar, you have a serious arrogance/attitude problem. That being said, no hard feelings =).. and Merry Christmas (i also suffer from post-mature congratulation and terminal sarcasm).


Well, sorry you feel that way....again I was the one pointing out the "inside joke" to you. The more political thing perhaps would have been to remain silent and enjoy the little "fakemenco" joke. But I felt to simply inform you in case you are serious about going deeper into the art form. There is a lot more hazing then some play on words jokes as you get more serious. I am not a big fan of letting newcomers "figure it out for themselves the hard way like we all did". Maybe because, yes hate to say it, I AM a teacher. [;)] Damn my ego!!![:D]

Good luck to you anyway amigo.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 20 2012 14:06:23)

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estebanana -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 20 2012 18:09:31)

Phlemenco TM

Capt. Y. You are either a huge troll who has been here before and are trying to get the goats of many of us, or you are really trying hard to understand this art form. Either way you're doing a fantastic job.

If you are a troll I see through your crazy ways because you know spelling it flemenco so many times in a row would elicit a joke at your expense. If you are not a troll, you are welcome here and you will get a lot if you take the advice of Ricardo.

I can recommend a guitar for you to play your special blend what of ever it is you want to play and it will work perfectly and have a low action. This guitar will cost you about 250.00 on eBay, it will plug right in and you can wail away. I think it even has a cutaway for those high note sonically devistating face melting solos you intend to play. Problem is I can't remember the brand. I have seen this guitar and heard it, it is not bad for 250.00.

If you look up the foro member Fred Sanford and send him an email asking the brand of that guitar he had and where you can get one I'm sure he will either sell you his or point to where you can get one. You can get that guitar ready to go for the same price a repairman can do a fret leveling, neck adjustment and reset up the action on your present guitar. ( which you should pitch into the nearest dumpster BTW)

Tell Fred Sanford The Big Banana sent you and he might give you a discount.

That is unless you really are Fred Sanford pulling our collective legs with your Phlemenco TM trolling.

???



estebanana -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 20 2012 18:10:53)

quote:

Any feedback,seasoned opinions,general banter,condolences,or psychiatric help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers, J


You did ask for various kinds of help so don't complain if you get it. [:D]



kevinitalien -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 20 2012 18:23:53)

key of the guitar may be too thick ..
or the handle is bent, hide ..
I had one day to the same kind problem and I just sanded the fret and was better



Guest -> RE: Eliminating fretbuzz on new guitar. (Jan. 21 2012 3:52:03)

quote:

This guitar will cost you about 250.00 on eBay

make sure the back stripe is symmetrically placed....even at this price.
[:D]



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