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I was talking to a luthier friend about selling used flamenco guitars and how it is customary to get say a 2011 luthier instrument for $4,000 and sell it in 2018 for $2,000 and people consider that totally OK or even expected (as buyers). Then I was told that violins usually go up in price after years of use or repairs, and I was wondering why the discrepancy between fields / instrument lines.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
Hi all,
I was talking to a luthier friend about selling used flamenco guitars and how it is customary to get say a 2011 luthier instrument for $4,000 and sell it in 2018 for $2,000 and people consider that totally OK or even expected (as buyers). Then I was told that violins usually go up in price after years of use or repairs, and I was wondering why the discrepancy between fields / instrument lines.
Any thoughts / insights?
Forget violin.... how about classical vs flamenco guitars? Used guitars played hard sound better but look worse.... buyers are often not players
Honestly the market was never such that in 7 years the price goes up to original ... unless it’s hot item. You wait 20 years or so to reach original price then depending rarity it holds or goes up. Old beat up flamencos from the 70,s were bought at $500 or less and can go for $5000 more or less since the 2000 or so. Modern luthiers are standing on shoulders of giants and expect to have success fast. Meanwhile musicians still make $100 bucks.
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
The main reason is that famenco is still a niche and very small in comparison: For this very reason, as a matter of facts, there are not many people available to spend good money for a used flamenco guitar. Secondly, while there is a good offer of second hand flamenco guitars, generally few amateur players are able to discern the quality of an instrument. The choice is even more difficult as there is a certain chance (bigger than in a classical guitar) that a used flamenco guitar may have problems. Finally the web dealers promote actively just some makers with whom they have a deal. This means you listen always the usual names and many good makers are ignored by the Internet crowd.
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
Simple economics as brutal as it may be. Guitars a a dime a dozen anymore. Same reason why Gibson, Guitar Center, Fender have all had financial difficulty recently. Why buy new when the market is flooded with used guitars? Why pay high dollar for used when you have a lot of options and guys who no longer want their guitars or play anymore? Really the markets peaked about 10-15 years ago IMO and has been on a decline since. No real reason for it to bounce back. Not as many guys playing anymore and still just as many guitars being churned out.
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
I wish I had investigated this more when I first got into flamenco, I got overexcited when shopping for guitars and bought several over the years second hand without stopping to consider their pre owned market worth- particularly now that I am trying to sell some of them to streamline my guitar collection (David Rouse and a Montero Aguilera blancas listed on reverb) I have had very few offers despite listing them both at a decent price and those I have had are much less than I feel they are worth, either that or more likely I was just too quick to pounce on them when I first saw them for sale and wanted them too much at the time. Oh well, lesson learnt I suppose.
Posts: 3467
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
I was talking to a luthier friend about selling used flamenco guitars and how it is customary to get say a 2011 luthier instrument for $4,000 and sell it in 2018 for $2,000 and people consider that totally OK or even expected (as buyers). Then I was told that violins usually go up in price after years of use or repairs, and I was wondering why the discrepancy between fields / instrument lines.
Any thoughts / insights?
The responses to Ramzi's question all address the diminished value of used flamenco guitars. None addressed the other half of his question which assumes that used violins usually go up in value. But is that true? Aside from Strads and a few others, do most violins one can buy new today increase in value after years of use? Or does the average violin diminish in value as well?
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 1945
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to BarkellWH)
I'm really not sure, but a friend is a great violinist and he told me that some players in major orchestras don't own the instruments they perform with. They can't pay 250k for a top instrument so they borrow them from collectors.
I'll never forget the day I was at his house and fed ex showed up with a new bow. It was 15k. It's clearly a different beast. Those players have been groomed since early childhood, and many thousands have been spent on their musical education, often at top schools.
Then there are the orchestras themselves, subsidized by cities and paying the musicians salaries of over 100k in many many cases for six months work. Much different world than 100.00 club gigs. Saw the stones once at a stadium, and my seat afforded a view of backstage, where they had forty or fifty guitars on stands. Music business is a strange thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
I was talking to a luthier friend about selling used flamenco guitars and how it is customary to get say a 2011 luthier instrument for $4,000 and sell it in 2018 for $2,000 and people consider that totally OK or even expected (as buyers). Then I was told that violins usually go up in price after years of use or repairs, and I was wondering why the discrepancy between fields / instrument lines.
Any thoughts / insights?
The responses to Ramzi's question all address the diminished value of used flamenco guitars. None addressed the other half of his question which assumes that used violins usually go up in value. But is that true? Aside from Strads and a few others, do most violins one can buy new today increase in value after years of use? Or does the average violin diminish in value as well?
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to Mark2)
250k Good lord! I was watching this corny show called Mozart in the Jungle which depicts musicians working in the city orchestra. One characters cello was 150k.
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to rombsix)
Violins vs guitar resale value.
The violin is 400 years old, it was developed in the late Renaissance period and Western music was developed in large part because of the simultaneously evolving violin.
The violin family was fully developed by the Year 1650 or so, and what Stradivar did was a final tweak to what was then 200 years of careful incrementally developed nuance between makers.
The guitar by contrast, as great as it is, does not command the resale prices because it's not an orchestral instrument that the backbone of Western music is constructed upon. The violin is essential to Western chamber and orchestra music, so it has a commercial market for resale that gives 300 years if historical provenance to violins.
Guitars are just beginning to have a resale market that expresses any comparable sensibility for evaluation of quality and provenance.
The best thing you can do is buy as many of my guitars as possible for your grand and great grandchildren. My guitars will eventually be recognized and provenance gained. Look for makers who continue the traditional routes from Torres through Santos and other Spanish masters. And also Hauser. These are the guitars that extend the classic line of development and make a connection to the original intent. Most of the other lines of development are branches and will not be historically significant.
RE: Why do violin prices go up and g... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
The best thing you can do is buy as many of my guitars as possible for your grand and great grandchildren. My guitars will eventually be recognized and provenance gained.
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