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RE: El andalu and flamenco   You are logged in as Guest
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Pingaloka

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2011
From: Granada, España

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to asisetoca

Hello, this is a very interesting post. I will like to add my point of view as a spanish, and also as a filologist, even though of arab language, but within the field of spanish filology.

Spanish language is actually called many times "castellano". Personally I think this is the correct designation, and not spanish (this is a big debate). Spain gathers many dialects and languages although castellano is the language used in the central government of Spain.
Languages as catalán, galaico-portugués, euskera. These languages grew independently from the "castellano" (born more or less in the X. Century)
at different historical times. They only have in common the root, which is latin, (appart from the euskera which is still uncertain where it comes from).

The rest are dialects from these languages. So, in Valencia they speak valenciano, which is a dialect from the Catalán language, it has differnces to the way it is written and spoken.
In Andalucía they don't speak "andalusian" they speak "castellano" or "español" or if you want to be more precise, a "variedad dialectal del castellano" or a variety of the castilian dialect. You can say "hablas con acento andalúz..." you speak with Andalusian accent, but it is not usual to hear "hablas andalúz" you speak andalusian. Or at least between spanish people its not common to say that.
Again, this matter involves political and social issues and it is open for debate. Some political parties of nationalist or regional character do claim this main differences. I do not agree at all with this separation in terms of language.
The norm for written "español" or "castellano" is exactly the same for someone raised in Madrid, or someone raised in Málaga. That is the written rule. It is the same 100%.

What it is spoken, that is a different matter, as many variables come into account.
Social, cultural background, etc.
There's no "correct spoken spanish" or "correct spoken castellano" there are different dialects of castellano, but all of them are legitimate/legit. There's no reference that can be looked at and say "ok, this is the correct castellano" (in terms of spoken, not written). Some people say eg. "the correct spanish is spoken in valladolid" They mix what is better understood, or pronunciation of all words with what correct means. As pronunciation of all words does not mean correct. Correct will mean that gramatically you construct phrases, words, correctly, independently from the accent, lexicon used, expressions, etc.

That is my point of view of course. There's quite a lot of debate about language/dialect issues in Spain.
If you want to understand the castilian which is spoken in andalucía, or castilian with andalusian accent, or andalusian dialect, off course learning spanish is useful, it is the same language! There are many differences inside Andalucía as well. People from Jaén speak more close to the "castellanos". There's also a division between "dialecto andalúz oriental and occidental" But the difference is not so big. There's more difference inside the cities as how people speak in a rich neighborhood or in a poor neighborhood I can tell you that.

Nevertheless I find this matter extremely thrilling and interesting for debate.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2011 21:48:37
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3456
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to Pingaloka

I found your post very interesting, Pingaloka. In a previous incarnation, I spent several years in South America, mostly in Santiago, Chile and Bogota, Colombia. In both Chile and Colombia, those that would be considered in the upper socio-economic class referred to Spanish as "Castellano," never as Espanol. Being a philologist, you probably are aware that Spanish linguistics experts generally agree that the purest form of old Castellano today is found in certain areas of Colombia. That is the case with most languages, though. Certain areas of old imperial possessions experience less language change than do the metropolitan areas such as Madrid. Thanks for your insights.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2011 22:04:09
 
Pingaloka

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2011
From: Granada, España

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH

I agree 100% with you BarkellWH. A very close friend of mine is from Colombia, so I'm quite familiarized with the spoken form. Gramatically is way more correctly used than how we speak in Spain. How prepositions are used, how phrases are built up... And it is interesting to point out that generally speaking not many people in Spain are aware of this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 24 2011 22:20:47
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to Pingaloka

Interestingly enough, here in Germany people might very well say, "He/She speaks Bavarian.." meaning Bavarian dialect and accent. Speaking to a non-German they'd probably say "He/She speaks German with a Bavarian accent" or "... a Bavarian dialect".
Like anywhere else, there're tons of local dialects around (not to mention so-called "sociolects"), and I challenge anybody who has learned and is proficient in classical German to understand Swabian, which is sort of German Andalú

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2011 17:07:18
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to Pingaloka

Yo hablo espanol con un accento andaluz, no hablo andaluz. Por ejemplo: "estoy resfriado" = "estoy re'fria'o". Mi mujer es mexicana y habla espanol con un accento mas facil.

Catalan is also spoken in the South of France and while it was banned in Catalunya under Franco, as a child, I spoke in French with them.

Things can get very confusing, but it's always fun to travel

p.s.Sorry, haven't figure out text accents on the iPad yet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2011 19:12:13
 
Estevan

Posts: 1934
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Like anywhere else, there're tons of local dialects around (not to mention so-called "sociolects"), and I challenge anybody who has learned and is proficient in classical German to understand Swabian, which is sort of German Andalú


Where I work the director is Swabian, her husband is from Leipzig. In order to understand each other they speak English.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2011 20:13:50
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to Pingaloka

quote:

the director is Swabian, her husband is from Leipzig. In order to understand each other they speak English.


Yeah, Swabian and Saxonian are pretty disparate
I'm not aware of similar differences in English, what do you guys think?

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Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2011 17:02:17
 
Estevan

Posts: 1934
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to edguerin

quote:

Yeah, Swabian and Saxonian are pretty disparate
I'm not aware of similar differences in English, what do you guys think?

Yes there are - or at least there certainly were - regional dialects that are to a large degree mutually incomprehensible. In recent times as in many countries the influence of broadcast media and greater mobility have reduced the differences somewhat but they are still there. Pronunciation is a large part of it of course (and can immediately give an indication of what part of the UK someone is from - without getting into the issue of 'class') but you can find some very different vocabulary in different regions - most noticeably amongst rural populations but these have died out as farming has largely died out and been replaced by agri-business.

A good demonstration can be found in Ken Loach's film "Riff-raff" which is entirely in English but has subtitles for the most part because of the great range of accents and dialects used by the different characters.

When I was very young my grandmother told me some stories in Yorkshire dialect that she had to translate into English for me as I could barely understand a word, having been born in Somerset which has (or had) its own very different (and much nicer) dialect.

Don't Tell I, Tell 'ee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2011 17:43:07
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3415
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to edguerin

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

quote:

the director is Swabian, her husband is from Leipzig. In order to understand each other they speak English.


Yeah, Swabian and Saxonian are pretty disparate
I'm not aware of similar differences in English, what do you guys think?


I used to travel to London on business a few times per year. About half the time the cab driver from Heathrow to town would be a true cockney, born and raised in east London "underneath the sound of Bow bells". Most of them addressed me ironically as "Guv'nor" and delighted in mystifying the American with a few totally unintelligible sallies in pure cockney dialect. After glancing in the mirror to enjoy my bafflement, they would translate.

Taking a friend on the Thames river boat tour from Westminster Stairs down to Greenwich, we got a very good tour guide/announcer. He modified his Cockney so that most English speakers on board could understand him. At one point he announced, "Lydies an' gen'lemen, on your lef' izza Billingsgyte Fish Market, the on'iest plyce onna' fyce uvva Earf where the English language is correc'ly spoke."

He also recited the poem

"The noble Juke of Wellington
Was owmost rejuced to a skellington.."

Everybody loved it.

In East Anglia where my family used to live, I visited the church at Stonham Parva (Little Stonham) in Suffolk, where some of us are buried. I was just about to leave when the sexton appeared, a local man in his seventies. He was very polite, friendly and helpful, showing me a carved wooden chest one of my ancestors had given to the parish. I could understand maybe one word in three.

All the same I asked directions to Framlingham Castle, where one of my cousins rallied military support to Mary Tudor. After a few sentences, none of which I understood at all, he concluded, "And then ye come oot by Fram'lam."

I thanked him warmly, shook his hand and went on my way, pausing after I had driven out of sight to consult my book of Ordnance Survey maps.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2011 23:04:12
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: El andalu and flamenco (in reply to Pingaloka

And there's always the question of "compas" (or accents on the correct syllAble )
I always need a while to get in synch with Indians or Pakistani.

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2011 10:05:10
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