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If someone wants to stand up and make an arse of themselves in public and cause folk to lose respect for them, then that's their call. [...]
It takes at least two to keep an argument going. If everybody walks away then the person is left ranting and arguing with himself in the dark like a loony.
but if we all walk away then there won't be a forum....
and what does the green button do exactly? if i block someone, does it mean i won't be able to see their posts? but then i'll be able to see other peoples replies to that persons posts and it could get a bit confusing... on the other hand if everyone blocks the same one person then noone will be able to see or reply to that persons posts.... is that how it works?
but if we all walk away then there won't be a forum....
Aw come on Mark... If my daughter says to me "Everytime I talk to this girl at school she always annoys me and says insulting things." What do you think I'm gonna say?
1. Don't talk to her then. or 2. Right, I'll go up to the school tomorrow and ask the Headmaster to expell her. or 3. OK we'll pull you out of that school and get you transferred to another.
(Actually she's too smart to ask me, she'd just naturally do the first option on her own.)
As the Tommy Cooper joke goes...
Patient: Doctor, it hurts everytime I do this with my arm. Doctor: Then don't do that.
I'm a kinda low-tech guy, I don't need buttons to block stuff I don't want to see. I just ignore it. Takes too long to read and it just bores me.
We have a situation now where at least 2 respected forum members will no longer post for fear of being immediately attacked. This has nothing to due with any viewpoint but simply personal vendettas against the members themselves.
Well said Pimiento. I stopped posting when I was told that my posts could be considered goading, that somehow simply by speaking up and defending someone I was adding fuel to the fire. I had had to watch a good friend and respected flamenco being insulted and slandered and read a load of bull about how it was in Spain from some-one who appeared to know nothing. Of course I had to defend my friend but I would have defended anyone under these circumstances. I was waiting for some-one to stand up and say enough, this has gone far enough and wont be tolerated. Jacinto even crowed that he would continue to retaliate whenever her name was mentioned. Without doubt this is the work of a bully. Estela also read these posts and made a decision not to post for fear the forum would just spontanously combust into acrimony and vitriol. Quite frankly we both have better things to be doing with our lives.
"Amser, boneddigion. Amser, diolch yn fawr"
Here's the thing. Ron (the Admin) had already told Jacinto to stop. And let's not use euphemisms please. Jacinto had apparently desisted, or had at least not commented on your 'friend' again, and you come back wanting to argue.
Like the other guy said, it takes two to [argentine] tango. He was cautioned, and you wanted to argue while he's not allowed to keep going.
Maybe it wasn't your intent to goad, but if you and your brother are fighting and your mom tells you not to talk to your brother, and then he starts saying/doing things to get a reaction from you, what would you call this? (And yes, Ron, you're the mom in this analogy, nice apron BTW.)
When an admin does give a warning, ALL parties should heed it. It's not an invitation to win your argument in your opponent's forced absence.
ORIGINAL: Exitao And let's not use euphemisms please.
I have no idea what you are referring to.
quote:
Jacinto had apparently desisted, or had at least not commented on your 'friend' again, and you come back wanting to argue.
What thread were you reading ? He made loads of very specific comments about Estela after Ron's request. And no my intention was not to argue. My last post on that thread was to try and keep the record straight about Estela's reputation and achievements here in Spain, to keep a balance somehow in the face of his comments.
quote:
It's not an invitation to win your argument in your opponent's forced absence.
There was no forced absence, Jacinto did not miss a beat. Neither was I continuing to argue with him, my post was not directed at Jacinto, I am never going to change his mind about Estela. I posted so everyone else, should they wish, could see other references to Estela's work and accomplishments.
Meanwhile if Admin wants to admonish me they can say so themselves. It is not your place to do so.
Florian began this thread so we could discuss these issues, and I have a right to join in and say how I feel about them. but here you are telling me off like I am some sort of schoolgirl causing trouble in the playground.
I have no tolerance for bullies, and while it is good advice to walk away sometimes you just got to stand up to them. And right now that includes you, so get off my back !
Hey calm down everyone! It's only an Internet Forum for heaven's sake...
In Glasgow, when I was growing up, there were always kids running around and bubbling and shouting "Ahm gonny get mah big brother on you!" to whoever upset them.
Unfortunately, it's impossible to be EVERYBODYS "big brother".
This is a list of people I've been asked by PMs to ban over the years.....
ToddK Florian Doitsujin Estela Koella Flamencopuro Miguel de Maria Howard Kate Pimientito Ricardo (yes!) Anders Eliasson Jacinto
and those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head!!
So you see the position here!
And of course, I was then told I was totally hopeless as a Moderator when I could not fulfil their request.
Florian began this thread so we could discuss these issues, and I have a right to join in and say how I feel about them. but here you are telling me off like I am some sort of schoolgirl causing trouble in the playground.
Hi Kate I am not sure who is making you feel like this but you are exactly right..I did start this thread so that everyone can voice theyr opinion..atlist we can tackle the subject head on..I can also imagine its fustrating to have to bite your lips out of fear of looking like a troll because people just see someone angry and its eazy to pass judgement....."troublemaker"..its alot eazyer to be indiferent when its not happening to you.
I didnt want anyone to feel like that on this thread....and He was just as welcome to come hear and discuss it and voice his opinion..
Ron i can appreciate you are in a difficult situation ..this thread its not to influence your decision but rather to say..."Ok this is hapening and i am not gonna look the other way...it dosent seem like its going to solve itself but sticking my head in the sand wont solve it either ..." its unpleasent but its happening
I am not doing this because i have something againt the member in question because hes never attacked me personaly and for better or worst to me hes atlist polite...but i am doing it out of consideration for other members to whom hes not giving the same treatment..
quote:
Hey calm down everyone! It's only an Internet Forum for heaven's sake...
With all the respect mate id never tell you what to do..but its the internet forum u are elected to admin ...if everyone said that anyone could do and say anything...lol."its just a internet forum...calm down"
its eazyer for you and I to calm down because we not directly involved...i can do whatever i want its not my responsibility....but you could aford to atleast take theyr concern seriously and atlist simpathize with them...even if you dont think its right to do anything about it.
as i said i hoped we could talk ourselfs out of this situation..i wasent trying to get anyone banned..(weather thats possible or not I dont know...i always hoped so)
Jacinto had apparently desisted, or had at least not commented on your 'friend' again, and you come back wanting to argue.
What thread were you reading ? He made loads of very specific comments about Estela after Ron's request. And no my intention was not to argue. My last post on that thread was to try and keep the record straight about Estela's reputation and achievements here in Spain, to keep a balance somehow in the face of his comments.
quote:
It's not an invitation to win your argument in your opponent's forced absence.
There was no forced absence, Jacinto did not miss a beat. Neither was I continuing to argue with him, my post was not directed at Jacinto, I am never going to change his mind about Estela. I posted so everyone else, should they wish, could see other references to Estela's work and accomplishments.
In the thread I'm referring to, Ron made his speech about about playing the ball, not the player. Jacinto continued to make 3 or 4 posts before you replied, but he had stopped talking about Estella (whoever she is when she's at home, as if I care, unless she's your mom or your Sgt., no one deserves that much loyalty).
If the Admin admonished people more often, and strictly, things would not have progressed as badly as they did. Yes, I'm sorry, this is a criticism, we need stronger modding.
I treated you like a schoolgirl because that's how I perceived it. I read Ron admonish and vaguely threaten. I observed Jacinto desisted (without further comment, which appeared to be him following instructions), and then I read you continue to argue.
Take a step back, imagine yourself as a spectator who doesn't understand or care about what you guys are going on about, and then imagine what your impression would be.
You would see one person apparently stopping, and the other person continuing to argue. I don't see any other way to read it.
If you want a conversation to end, you have to stop talking.
Unless your intent is to win or force the other person to continue behaving in a way that gets them banned.
I'm not telling you off. I'm stating my case in no uncertain terms. If you feel like a school girl, that's not my intent. As I fail to see how I could express myself otherwise, I'm not sure it's my concern. I'm not emotionally invested in this, but it seems that you are and I don't know you well enough to calm you down, so I stick to reason. I just want for there to be a chance for things to cool down.
Ron i can appreciate you are in a difficult situation ..this thread its not to influence your decision but rather to say..."Ok this is hapening and i am not gonna look the other way...it dosent seem like its going to solve itself but sticking my head in the sand wont solve it either ..." its unpleasent but its happening
So Flo, you're saying I should have banned you, when I was getting umpteen requests to do so? Is that what Moderation is about?
I understand what you are saying Extiao but also consider you are seeing it unaffected and as a spectator..as i said before...its eazy to be cool when its someone else its happening to.
She was personally in the midlle of the situation...weather she was right or wrong its irellevant..
put yourself in her shoes for a second...u are furious in a midlle of an argument with someone who going at you and then someone who isnt directly affected by it and calm, is telling you to quiet down..because its disturbing his forum experience..
telling someone who is angry about something to calm down dosent work i been saying it for years...u have to listen and make an effort or atlist pretend to care
So Flo, you're saying I should have banned you, when I was getting umpteen requests to do so? Is that what Moderation is about?
Sure...if enough people requested it ...majority rules..if 1 guy leaving makes a whole forum happier..by all means...i might have not liked it but if i was the admin ..and you were in question and majority asked ...I would have canned your a*s in a sec
if not that then what is moderation about ? whats the alternative ? never ever taking any action ? never ever making any decisions ?
u dont have to ban anyone unfairly but u can set some rules to give them an oportunity to clean theyr act up...and u can enforce it.
Hence the ongoing Israel/Palestinian saga. It appears decisive action by force has no effect either. People have just got to learn toleration IMO.
sure that sounds romantic...
why do we need police stations and why dont cops say that ?
I love the idea of toleration and perfect world as much as the next guy but until then we live in this one...not everybody has the luxury of beeing politicaly correct...some have the responsibility of beeing the bad guy for a greater good.
I didn't know you were such a Right Winger Flo... Point taken. Flog 'em and hang 'em.
cheers,
Ron
Off Topic here...but now that W has nothing to do with his time, is it possible he'll be joining Tony Blair as a Peace Envoy to the Middle East? Man... that WOULD sure be Monty Python for real.
Ron- I dont think moderation is about banning people but its about keeping people in line with some sort of rules. I think we need to look at the question posed at the begining of the thread. What is good forum etiquette? When does the line get crossed that makes one forum members behaviour unacceptable? How does that get dealt with?
Whatever the argument...and lets face it there have been some humdingers over the years, an opposing point of view can be presented passionately but not necessarily with "I'll attack you if you disagree"
Secondly you have sucessfully moderated situations by asking certain members to not comment on each others posts or comment on each others audio uploads...and that worked!
Let me ask, how is it now possible for Estella to possibly post anything anymore when its been publically stated by him that any posts by her or even the mention of her will give him the right to behave as badly as he wants, as if he has no control. That is not the talk of a stable individual.
Boasting about physical violence toward other forum members is apparently not against forum rules however. Personally I think that has crossed aline of reasonable behaviour. people should not get beaten up over flamencology.
Exitao- If you dont know or care who Estella is then you are defending a situation that you know nothing about. You should make it your business to find out. I can see your point of view from that of an observer, but this is not a recent story. Its tied to history of bad blood over many years and with great respect, you don't know what you are talking about.
I am not a right winger Ron..i said i started this thread to talk...to convince the member in question to pay attention..to make an effort....thats all
but i am a realist...i love the idea or toleration and harmony..I LOVE IT ..< I wish the best in everyone...i try my hardest to find it...but lets be realistic..we live in this world.....none of us are perfect..some are in a position where they have to watch out for others and make ugly decisions
Political correctness is a luxury people of responsibilities cant afford by your definition every cop, judge, security guard, soldier is a rightwing..
many people sleep safe at night because someone had to wear that ugly tag do you think that they are unecesarry ? and we should just yell out Tolerance and thats it ?
Well, I see it is all a matter of perspective. This foro reflects life, with its good, bad, awkwardness, and downright ugly bits to. That is why it is alive imho. Do you want tough moderation like that at Old School?
Me, I am a hypocrite. Toddk is right, we all can be. But I try and balance things with a silly comment about me and if you upload something I will try and tell you how I feel cause I don't know enough about the technicalities. I try and play nice, but I can troll like ol' Ronny.
Let me ask, how is it now possible for Estella to possibly post anything anymore when its been publically stated by him that any posts by her or even the mention of her will give him the right to behave as badly as he wants, as if he has no control.
Pimientito,
Estela? Jeez, I would't want to ever look the wrong way at Zata myself... she's a pretty able person IMO... you make her sound like a timid little lassie!
Estela can post freely here, so long as it's not bringing up old feuds that happened in other Forums. If anyone jumps on her based on the same old feuds, then they've got their walkin' papers as far as I'm concerned.
If anyone jumps on her based on the same old feuds, then they've got their walkin' papers
That sounds like a final warning then!
Enough excitement for this week. Its friday night and I'm off to get drunk in Granada with some gypsies who apparently dont know anything about real flamenco.
I remember this guy who was drunk all the time and started to insult people without any reason and he got banned by Ron immediately (or after one warning if i remember). Now, that was a case where one should have been banned and he was banned.
But in this Jacinto guys case, honestly, if you ask me , i dont like him and his attitude and his comments either but let the guy stay and try to convince everybody that modern is Sh!t, and Guitar without Cante is Sh!t and........who cares? If you want to listen, listen , if not, dont.
At least he seams to be interested in Flamenco and seams to know a lot about the old days of flamenco and could be a good information source for some questions for analysing flamenco..... (whereas that drunk guy was not even aware of anything related to flamenco)....
Its friday night and I'm off to get drunk in Granada with some gypsies who apparently dont know anything about real flamenco.
U guys in Europe are so slow its not even funny i have allready been though friday night...its saturday morning here...I am thinking of starting a bussines where i give people in Europe the lotto numbers and Soccer scores....and the news before it happens ...
btw...that girl you going to meet in a few hours is not going to sleep with you so dont waiste your money ..i can allready read the threads you will post on saturday..
I remember this guy who was drunk all the time and started to insult people without any reason and he got banned by Ron immediately (or after one warning if i remember). Now, that was a case where one should have been banned and he was banned.
Thanks Arash, You know, just after that I got several PMs criticising me for acting too hastily and that I should have given the guy a chance, even though he didn't know anything about Flamenco and was asking what the best guitar he could get for 80 bucks max if he ever got round to buying one.
It's a no-win situation.
But I enjoy everybody's posts anyway.
Keep calm everybody....
Choose Life....Choose Flamenco...Choose a great Guitar....Choose Andalucia.... Choose Capullo y Diego....Choose Curso d'Andalu........Mira...Mamá...Arza...Arza... Olé!
And remember I still keep a big Magnum by my side and will use it when I have to...
I understand what you are saying Extiao but also consider you are seeing it unaffected and as a spectator..as i said before...its eazy to be cool when its someone else its happening to.
She was personally in the midlle of the situation...weather she was right or wrong its irellevant..
put yourself in her shoes for a second...u are furious in a midlle of an argument with someone who going at you and then someone who isnt directly affected by it and calm, is telling you to quiet down..because its disturbing his forum experience..
telling someone who is angry about something to calm down dosent work i been saying it for years...u have to listen and make an effort or atlist pretend to care
See, I don't care who's right or wrong. I just wanted the fighting done with.
I recognise people get heated. Crap, I used to have huge anger management issues. However, as I get older, I realise that for the sake of social harmony, it doesn't matter who is right, and most of the time people don't really care.
Often, even when you win, no one cares.
Ron:
I think temp bans can be a good idea. When people get too heated, a 48 or 72 hour time-out can really help people get a check on their rage. Call it an enforced cease-fire, if you will.
If it's for other types of problems, being away from the forums may make people realise the value of the forum if they miss it, and inspire better, nicer, kinder and environmentally friendlier behaviour.
Crap, I used to have huge anger management issues.
Used to ? didnt you threaten me with an knife in the other thread ...said that if i didnt introduce you to my mom u hope the horse eats my fingers when i give him an apple ?
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..i can allready read the threads you will post on saturday.. 
didnt you threaten me with an knife in the other thread ...said that if i didnt introduce you to my mom u hope the horse eats my fingers when i give him an apple ? 
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