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runner

 

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

Flamenco--A Modest Proposal 

The discussion of Flamenco & Fusion has been very interesting. As a follow-up, it would be instructive to have the thoughts and reactions of Foro participants to the various offerings presented in Carlos Saura's 1994 DVD Flamenco. I think maybe most aficionados have this DVD, so it represents a commonly-shared database just about everybody has access to. As someone always interested in learning more about flamenco, I'd appreciate input as to which numbers on the Flamenco DVD are considered "real" flamenco, "old" flamenco, "traditional" flamenco, pseudoflamenco, flamenco fusion, "modern" flamenco, etc. Use whatever terms you find most useful/helpful, but DON'T, please don't say "It's all flamenco". If everything is flamenco, then........

runner
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 8:12:44
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
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From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner)1 votes

lol you not going to get much of an idea cause a million people have a million different ideas about "real" "old" "traditional" etc..


quote:

but DON'T, please don't say "It's all flamenco". If everything is flamenco, then........


lol ok...but why not ? that is the best answer

but i wont say it...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 9:27:24
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
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From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

quote:

but i wont say it...


OK, I will..
Las Ketchup!

(Oh...and the Cheeky Girls too!)

OK man, it ain't heavy flamenco, but it's flamenco just the same.
And if you don't think so then you've just got a closed mind IMO.



cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 10:26:47
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ron.M

i havent seen them ...


I am not sure if u are trying to implie something my way lol ( i wish you would just call me up then and there if u disagree so that i dont need to gues) but i never said call everyone whos not flamenco, flamenco... i just said "who cares" whats the obsesion with classifing and drawing lines...makes absolute no difference...you going to listen to what you like and i am going to do the same anyway..makes no difference to me if anyone thinks its flamenco or not..and it should make no difference to you whatsoever on what other people think..

I am a litlle more concerned with us becoming a litlle too dismisive, narow minded ignorant snobs and publicly disrespect anything else out there thats not flamenco..or that dosent fitt with our own ideas of what it should be..

I love flamenco absoluteley as much as anyone out there or in here but i dont wanna become a dissmisive narow minded snob who talks down and puts down everything thats not flamenco..

that would make all of us look bad..as a forum ...thats not the kind of forum u want is it ? where we just sit around and play down or dissmis everything under the stars..

so if you think that i allow people too eazy to be flamenco ...my replie is ..i dont care...they wanna be flamenco or say they are ..let them...my opinions are my own...

if runner is asking this question because hes starting out and still trying figure out the boundries...then i would say thats fine...its safe to assume that everysingle thing in Carlos Saura's "Flamenco" is flamenco...including Ketama ( in that context) its light true but in that context its flamenco

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 11:07:30
 
Ron.M

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Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

quote:

i havent seen them ...






So Flo,
If you had to meet them in a bar, you're NOT going to say....
"Hey chicas, I'm Florian from Australia.. Flamenco guitarist....you know...I really dig your stuff...would you like to come back to my hotel room....I'd like to talk to you about it some more...."




This is their best number IMO...




cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 11:34:11
 
Florian

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From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Hey chicas, I'm Florian from Australilia.. Flamenco guitarist....you know...I really dig your stuff...would you like to come back to my hotel room


I am offended that you think i am that eazy i would have to talk to them first ..get to know them

they got a though act to follow ..last weekend there was a girl here who works as one of the foregin advisors to the priminister in canbera (she had to go back now) ...she was very pretty and intelligent, very interesting....we discussed many counties ..i am not sure if i can go back to conversations about shopping and what u had for dinner last night..



oh i am kidding about the Chikas btw...i would probably try my luck just like any other human beeing or wouldnt depending on my courage that day regardless..i can eazly dismiss my self respect to fitt any ocasion ..its amazing how eazy it is...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 11:47:32
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

quote:

she was very pretty and intelligent..we discussed many counties


Yeah, but was she cheeky?

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 11:53:38
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
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From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ron.M

lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 11:57:15
 
Matic

 

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From: Slovenija

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

Reminded me of Lady in the radiator from David Lynch's Eraserhead.
She's one cheeky chick.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 12:47:14
 
runner

 

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From: New Jersey USA

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

The results so far--Ron M. and Florian both appear to affirm that everything on the Saura DVD is flamenco, but choose to not further distinguish. Florian also affirms that music (in general) is flamenco or not flamenco, but chooses not to make any further statement. Question: how does one know if music is not flamenco? Question for Ron M.--is anything on the Saura DVD flamenco fusion?

runner
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 15:49:41
 
Exitao

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From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

On the Flamenco DVD, there's a bit in the extras, it's essentially just text and it mentions in a rather non-bias-inducing way that some things are not considered "traditional".

It mentions how dance school is sometimes considered less flamenco by some people, it mentions how some of the dance is very modern (like the shirtless guy and even, IRC, the light of my life, Belen).

There's actually text for each song/performance.

Despite the fact that PDL is the Second Coming, I think I dislike his performance the most, but obviously not for his playing. Honestly, the only thing that consistently turns me off in modern flamenco is the inclusion of a bass.


P.D.

I feel I should also mention how truly disappointed I am that this thread's theme does not seem to include eating Irish or Andalucian children. There's nothing modest about this proposal at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2009 16:53:47
 
Ron.M

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From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

quote:

Question for Ron M.--is anything on the Saura DVD flamenco fusion?


Hi runner,
It's been a while since I saw the DVD and I keep getting it mixed up with the "Sevillanas" DVD.
Hmmm...I can't really remember any "fusion" stuff.
I seem to remember there's quite a bit of theatricality involved in both films, but Saura is essentially a film maker and not a documentary maker.

Entertaining, but I wouldn't say it's meant to be anything definitive about Flamenco or in any way the standard "benchmark". (IMO).
"Flamenco Women" by Mike Figgis I found much more enjoyable along with a number of BBC documentaries I've seen and of course, the archive stuff from RTE.
A Compás on Ondajerez TV is also very good.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 3:22:07
 
Arash

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From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

In the DVD of Carlos Sauras "Iberia", there is someone dancing break dance and Gerardo Nunez playing guitar.
Still, Flamenco.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 4:32:19
 
Ailsa

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From: South East England

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

"Flamenco Women" by Mike Figgis I found much more enjoyable


I've not seen that, but there are some extracts on youtube which look really good. Try this one




PS Ron I had never seen the cheeky girls before either. It's an education being on the Foro with you !

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 5:29:47
 
Ailsa

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From: South East England

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

Hi runner,

I've seen this film a few times, and enjoy it for it's diversity. I would say all of it is flamenco, and I'm not much one for trying to classify things. Here are a few thoughts on the bits I can remember. But I'm still quite a newbie myself, so hope I'm not starting a huge argument!

Guajira - I think this is quite 'old school', and I love it, and Merche Esmeralda is just beautiful. I did a Guajiras course with her last year in Jerez tho, so am perhaps biased!

Farruca - can't remember what instruments are playing, is it a string trio? So not completely traditional then, but then neither is Joaquin Cortes! He's basically a bit show off But also very clever. For me it is still obviously flamenco though.

Fandangos - this is the best bit of the whole film for me. Before hearing this I always thought Fandangos was a bit flimsy. Shame on me! Just because it has characteristics of a folk song doesn't mean it's trivial.

Solea sung by Fernanda - wonderful cante of course. And I like the way Saura has left in the bit at the end where she says "I wanted to sing more but the guitarist cut me off"

Those are the bits that have stuck in my memory.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 5:42:33
 
Florian

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Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ailsa

lol this is just imposible none of it is traditional and all of it is..each thing was as much flamenco as the next...as much traditional and as much modern as the next..

all of it except for a couple of tracks (that either had no guitar or the guitarist did absoluteley nothing to be able to judge it..unless u wana call a guitarist that didnt play many falsetas or just played falsetas on the lower fret "traditional") was modern mixed with traditional...singing traditional guitar quite modern or whatever u wanna call it...most guitarists were young guitarists..

so even the most "modern" ones where traditional and most "traditional" ones were modern..
quote:

Farruca - can't remember what instruments are playing


The Farruca had guitar too...and its was 100% flamenco regardless on personal feelings on Cortes style..take away the strings its was just farucca acompanying as faruca as you can get..put the shirt back on he danced Farruca as much as anyone else..

the most modern ones if u wanna label them was i guess was Paco's tangos (but i dont think so) and Belen Maya's dancing..but even that was 100% flamenco

how are we going to judge this ? whomever played a falseta higher then the 5th fret was modern ? whomever didnt do a falseta was traditional ?lol

whomever took theyr shirt off was not flamenco..whomever keped it on was ? whomever used a base guitar was fusion whomever used palmas was traditional ?

what Agujetas did was quite traditional but it was no more flamenco then anyone else in the dvd..

comparing different palos for flamencability is like comparing apples and oranges

what makes modern modern and traditional traditional ? if its traditional song acompanied by a young modern guitarist what is it ?

again this line between modern and traditional is more in our minds cause we feel the need to clasifie but it dosent really exist...there just different styles, different generations, different tastes but its all mixed togheder..


what makes Diego del Gastor traditional and Tomatito modern besides time ?

so then anything older is traditional and everything youngher is modern ?

I am sorry but this modern vs traditional its silly always has been..

its nothing but flamenco in different years...but its all exactly the same...some modes changed, some tunings changed, some letras have changed, the clothes fashion changed and the musiceanship changed but none its more or less flamenco then the other....if the most traditional guitarrist or singer started singing or playing today he would sound exactly like anybody u consider modern..


its not a style thing its a abilitie thing, its a generation thing atlist for guitarists...noone today plays what you consider traditional because thats what they want...they play it because thats what they know, have learned and can do...theres no traditional guitarrists out there that can play like Diego Del Morao but choose to play like Paco Pena..

once and for all... u want traditional look for old guys want modern look for anyone youngher...and then u gonna get really confused around people like Paco..Manolo Sanlucar etc lol

thats what makes this impossible.. there are Older guitarrists who can play modern...eg. Paco, Manolo Sanlucar, Nino De Pura...so then is it purely a skill thing ?

any modern guitarist can play "traditional" if they chose too...its a bit harder for traditional guys to play "modern"

so again this just leaves us with different generations, educations, training, higher standard and technical expectations of guitarrists..

only a handfull of virtuoso guitarrists had the skills to get past the generations gap...majority remained what we refer to as "traditional" or died because they were very very old..

I am not disrespecting "traditional" whatsoever...but its just flamenco history..its not a style or a choice

theres no need to label it...whenever i see in a flamenco show's poster the term "traditional" i think ..." - Ahem hes playing the "traditional" card

why do we never call Paco or Manolo Sanlucars, Nino De Pura's stuff "traditional" ? because we cant do most of theyr stuff thats why

yet anybodyes thats a litlle more doable we call "traditional" eg. Moraito, Diego Del Gastor, Paco Pena, Juan Martin etc...

so are we using the "traditional" card its just an excuse for not beeing able to play or follow guitarists like Paco...to make it sound like its a choice ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 6:27:02
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

To the first post here...

Well the movie flamenco from Saura is now more or less 9 years old. I think what you see there is classic style now.

Did anybody see the program of the actual bienal? There is a spanish streamtelevision or youtube, where you can see much of it.

The music and the dance seems to develope in different directions. The music becomes pop-music which will fit in any radio-charts in future. But the dance.. already became contemporary. Watch galvan, andres marin and also most of the others. They switched from dance to abstract theater as far as I get it. There is not much style as from the "saura-movie" left. A really dramatic and crazy change IMO.

What is about the singing?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 6:31:01
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

The saura movie captured alot of great artists and choose to represent each one with exemplary pieces. Paquera with buleria de jerez, Farruco, Fernanda and Manuela Carrasco with their Solea's, Magdalena with her "dance class", Agujeta with his martinete, Mario maya with martinete dance, Toronjo's Fandango de Huelva, CArmen linares Taranta, tangos of remedios and aurora, cuple of Lole y Manuel, etc. So simply put, choice cuts of famous artists strongest work. And many are now dead, so, a landmark piece for posterity.

The "modern" stuff was obvious, as mentioned Cortes Farruca, Paco's "fusion" band with extra instruments, the bulerias of the "camaroneros" and modern technical dance style, Morente's "out there" siguiriyas. Sanlucar's Alegrias guitar solo was modern and original as well, though performed in a "traditional" manner.

So there were a few things I think "missing" from the film, or I would change. Some singers missing that were/are great, and some guitarists too. How about Nuñez and Indio Gitano? That would have been nice. Or Vicente and el Pele? As far as palos, there could have been more siguiriya, and some Fandangos naturales, and along with them some great singers. Dancers, how about La Tati? Yerbabuena, Sara Baras, etc. Macanita and some other jerezanos (Sordera I saw in there) doing Villancico? Not very exemplary for me. Menese doing Peteneras?? They could have featured that singer better IMO.

Paco got stuck showing the modern fusion flamenco band, "jamming" on tangos. They should have had him in Sanlucar's spot doing La Barrosa, to show where the guitar has come, and saved Sanlucar for something more artsy, like with orchestra or something, or even just his Rondeña solo in there would be exemplary. To end with rumba and Manzanita was nice. For me though, they could make an entire "rumba" movie like he did with Sevillanas. I personally put Villancico, Sevillana, and Rumba, outside of the mainstream flamenco, replaced with anything I mentioned above, but that is just me.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 8:00:08
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
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From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ricardo

You've just outlined the ultimate flamenco movie....the flamenco version of desert island discs (if that means anything to anyone)
Ok I agree with paco doing "la Barrosa", Yerbabuenas footwork, vicente and el pele too.

On my wish list I'd have liked to have seen the video of Nuñez playing rumba with strunz and farah. I'd throw in a bit of cigala, tomatito, esperanza fernandez, moraito, Farruquito...and a really hot dancer like Alba Heredia. Just for fun I would also include the cepillo and pablo martin cajon and double bass solo (on the same instrument)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 8:50:29
 
Pimientito

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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

quote:

Question: how does one know if music is not flamenco?


Answer: Your mum can clap along to it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 8:53:09
 
runner

 

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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

Thanks to Ricardo for supplying, so far, the most detailed and informative observations on Saura's Flamenco. Doitsujin, I think, calls it all "classic" and seems to suggest that it is now classic because it is 9 (actually 15) years old. Ailsa's comments are also helpful, and appreciated.

Florian again offers his many reasons for why it's all "100% flamenco". I'm still looking for advice on the difference between flamenco and not-flamenco (or how we can tell, Pimientito notwithstanding).

runner
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 17:26:10
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
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From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

it feels like u are comentating a football match .lol..


quote:

I'm still looking for advice on the difference between flamenco and not-flamenco (or how we can tell,


well there was no "not" flamenco in Sauras...

if u are talking in general ok..Madona is "not" flamenco and Paco Pena is..

basically anything with flamenco in it is flamenco..and when it dosent have it, its not flamenco....but dont get confused with just"sounding" like flamenco...its has to be the flamenco compas and form....do you want a list of all the flamenco palos ?

I have to go now but when i come back i will make a list out of Sauras "Flamenco" of who is more flamenco then whom...and whos better at beeing more flamenco and whos not ..its going to be wonderful

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 22:04:40
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ailsa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

Hi runner,

I've seen this film a few times, and enjoy it for it's diversity. I would say all of it is flamenco, and I'm not much one for trying to classify things. Here are a few thoughts on the bits I can remember. But I'm still quite a newbie myself, so hope I'm not starting a huge argument!

Guajira - I think this is quite 'old school', and I love it, and Merche Esmeralda is just beautiful. I did a Guajiras course with her last year in Jerez tho, so am perhaps biased!

Farruca - can't remember what instruments are playing, is it a string trio? So not completely traditional then, but then neither is Joaquin Cortes! He's basically a bit show off But also very clever. For me it is still obviously flamenco though.

Fandangos - this is the best bit of the whole film for me. Before hearing this I always thought Fandangos was a bit flimsy. Shame on me! Just because it has characteristics of a folk song doesn't mean it's trivial.

Solea sung by Fernanda - wonderful cante of course. And I like the way Saura has left in the bit at the end where she says "I wanted to sing more but the guitarist cut me off"

Those are the bits that have stuck in my memory.


The farrucas you're talking about had Joaquin Cortes (dancer), Juan P. Munoz (violin), Fernando Anguita (chello), Pedro Anton (guitar).

Similar to the bit where Saura didn't cut Fernanda off, I liked how at the end of Cortes' farruca and he let out his breath. They had assumed that it would be edited out but wasn't.

Doitsujin: copyright on my DVD says 1995, so it's 13 years old. From the clothes and hair, I would have guessed it was from the late 80s myself.


I was under the impression that this movie was intended to be somewhat of a documentary. It was a video snapshot of what was representative of flamenco at that moment in time. I don't know how many of you really have the DVD, or how many have video copies, but the extras bit on the DVD really does explain a lot.

Who knows how much would have been controversial 13 years ago?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2009 23:24:31
 
Pimientito

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From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to runner

quote:

I'm still looking for advice on the difference between flamenco and not-flamenco (or how we can tell, Pimientito notwithstanding).


I gave you a short answer to a short question. There is no one style of Flamenco but a progressive evolution of older styles to more modern ones. The movie "flamenco" represented some of the best artists of its day and while some were older artists performing their "version" of flamenco and some were more modern, its fair to say that it was ALL flamenco.

Your question seems to be "well, if thats All flamenco...what is not flamenco?"
To answer that it really hard because now one has to define "what is flamenco?" and this is the subject of many books. Is it a sound? Is it a form? Is it an attitude? Is it a lifestyle?

I will offer an opinion based on some of the statements given above.
1. Flamenco is anything with flamenco in it.
If thats true then the gypsy kings singing "my way" is flamenco and pitingu singing "killing me softly" is flamenco. It is possible to take a song and add a flamenco feel to it... but thats not in itself flamenco.
2. Flamenco is music in flamenco compas
Thats certainly true...but wait a minute, west side story theme "America" fits buleria so that must be flamenco too. Ah.. but there is no andalucian gypsy influence in west side story so...
3. Flamenco is an andalucian gypsy art form.
Well there is no doubt the gypsies influenced the evolution of flamenco, but look at all the non gypsy artists (and indeed non spanish) who influenced flamenco and perform today. Does this mean Ricardo and Grisha don't play flamenco?
4. flamenco is performed with flamenco technique
Ok, that is a big part of it, but the technique is only there to make the sound. This is a big difference between classical and flamenco dance or music. Even a piano can be played in a flamenco way and it will be flamenco. Also you can play Jazz with flamenco technique and its still Jazz. (This is a confusing point- Flamenco can have jazz influence and still be flamenco, Jazz can have flamenco influence and still be jazz. A guy playing jazz on a flamenco guitar with flamenco technique is NOT playing flamenco)
5. Flamenco is traditional
It always takes time for modern ideas to become generally accepted. When Paco de Lucia first started experimenting he was considered "not flamenco". Now his work is the basis of modern flamenco.

So its clear that a major factor is cultural acceptance while the art evolves as to what is considered flamenco or not. All of these sub categories of "fusion" and "modern" and "pure" are less relevant. They are still flamenco.

Flamenco has a strong tradition in Andalucia folk and gypsy forms. It fits a specific compas, is performed with flamenco technique and very importantly, is culturally accepted by flamencos as being "flamenco"

This is why Nuevo flamenco for example does not fit....because of the lack of andalucian influence, no roots in gypsy tradition, no flamenco technique, no flamenco Compas, whereas Gerardo Nuñez for example IS flamenco because he does fit all those catagories.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 1:29:16
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

2. Flamenco is music in flamenco compas
Thats certainly true...but wait a minute, west side story theme "America" fits buleria so that must be flamenco too


I said compas and form

quote:

its has to be the flamenco compas and form



flamenco is acctualy none of this litlle details..is the emotion, the story, the pulse, the compas, the intent behind...its hard to know everyones intent and knolodge so u have to give people the benefit of the doubt....unles u wana be flamenco supercop ....if its intended as a buleria and he says it is and follows the compas and form ...u could argue it but its just down to personal taste.from there on...a guy could play flamenco beating 2 wodden spoons togheder.

i mean sometimes it makes your job eazy to dismiss cause the guy could be from outside spain or not look flamenco, eazy FUSION.....but it gets a litlle harder when the guitarist is from Spain and has a track record of flamenco ..

we said it before...Some unknown guitarist does it outside spain...its fusion, a known guitarist in Spain does exactly the same thing...its flamenco inovation


too much is left for speculation...thats why its eazyer to stick to the facts (if its a palo..and follows the structure of the palo...then its flamenco)...none of our visions are clear...its all blured by past experiences...and premade ideas..and the fact that we know and only ofer the benefit of the doubt to esablished artists..
even though someone else could do exactly the same thing...if u were to just judge it on that it would be identical..


and thats why conversations like this are impossible...simples answer..wanna know what flamenco is..pick up a copy of all the flamenco Palos...the rest is down to individual opinions..


its alot eazyer to say what flamenco isnt...basicaly if its not an accepted flamenco Palo is not flamenco

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 3:15:28
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

quote:

I said compas and form


Its OK. I wasnt quoting you exactly on this point...I was just trying to get some ideas in a logical order to explain why compas isnt enough. Similarly Form without compas is also not flamenco (unlesss its free form). As for beating spoons together, well isnt that where it all comes from? People getting rhythms out of hand claps, foot stamps, shells , table tops, wash boards, anvils etc. That IS flamenco!

I think its more than just personal taste. There has to be a cultural acceptance. If someone tries something new and everyone laughs and says "thats not flamenco"...and 10 years on its still not accepted, then its fair to say its not flamenco. If someone else tries something new and some people love it, others hate it but over time it becomes incorporated as "being flamenco" then it is. Saying that everyone has their personal preferences. you dont have to like modern flamenco...but its a mistake to say its not flamenco.

At least we both agree that Flamenco has to be accepted as a palo (culturally) to be flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 3:41:04
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

I think its more than just personal taste. There has to be a cultural acceptance. If someone tries something new and everyone laughs and says "thats not flamenco"...and 10 years on its still not accepted, then its fair to say its not flamenco.


true ...or u could say its bad

but i understand what you mean..i am not arguing that..its just to hard to have this conversation lol we could spend the next 5 years talking about it and at the end we would still be exactly in the same spot...with the same conclusions

so the safest , quickest, generally fairest as far as i can see ( ofcourse theres exceptions...theres no bulet proof way of judging it) is every accepted Palo is flamenco...anyone doing an accepted palo is doing flamenco...anything beyond that gets complicated and messy and its open to personal interpretation, experience, acceptance, the previous work of the person doing it.. etc...

but i wont ruin for whomever wants clearer guidelines ...il let you guys talk it out and establish the guideliness for yourselfs if you think that you can come up with clear widely accepted ones

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 3:48:27
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

I think I basically agree with you. I certainly not going to spend the next 5 years arguing the fine print This is like trying to answer "what is art?"
I would clarify "accepted palo" by saying "palo culturally accepted as flamenco by flamenco artists"

I would just further you statement by saying....anyone doing a culturally accepted palo is doing flamenco...anyone today doing something innovative that will edventually become culturally accepted as flamenco is also doing flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 4:00:56
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito

yes ofcourse

quote:

anyone today doing something innovative that will edventually become culturally accepted as flamenco is also doing flamenco.


I agree with you on this in theory (my personal feeling is that it would be nice and personally i might) ...but you just threw a log on the fire lol

in a perfect world that would be the case but the truth is we dont know the future..if its not accepted now...until it is..it wont be generally accepted as flamenco by people who look for clear guidelines..

give some examples. what are you thinking of exactly when you say this ? so i can have a clearer idea of what u are refering too


along your kind of lines..... there is probably defenetly going to be disagreement on this, expecially around here, its certanly not for everybody, its a grey area....but i only speak for myself..


personally i think that on a flamenco cd that has other established and accepted palos a Bolero/Fantasy track is flamenco ...because of the context of wich is beeing played in and the artist has established that he understands flamenco..and its a flamenco "informed" choice but this is just personal...i know many will not share my view..and thats fine..

I know i am a litlle too forghiving that way lol and its not for everybody...but once a artist has established his flamenco education and knolodge...to me everything on that flamenco album is flamenco in a more General sense...even if its not a established palo.. am i Making any sense ?

the context on a certain album and the previous work of a certain artist also helps to define to me weather something is flamenco or not, even if not accepted as a established form..even if in a more general form, i still think of it as flamenco..

once u understand flamenco and are flamenco educated...everything u do is flamenco...or done in a flamenco way..u cant go back, comes out even when u try to do different things...Tomatito could play rock and i would still hear the flamenco in it..

It could be a state of mind i imposed on myself but then again..then again everything we know are state of minds we impose on ourselfs..

eg.. I hear flamenco in Pacos ..Cancion De Amor, I hear Flamenco in Nino Josele's Jazzy album Paz...they probably dont mean to do it..or they do ...but its there, the base of who they are as musiceans..

Once u are flamenco..u cant get it out of your thought and system as if u never learned it...no matter what you do, you cant switch it off..just like u cant unlearn something that you have learned, u cant erase an experiance that u had and u cant unhear a song that you have heard..everything u have done, experienced, learned, heard its in you for the rest fo your life...forming your approach, the way u view things, how u react..

this is another one of those grey areas, unfair and unclear ways that help formulate personal acceptance on flamenco or not ..I am thinking this way..i am a pretty average guy...so i am sure there will be others thinking just like me...


there are many many grey/unclear/unfair but yet just as present in someones mind when he/she formulates his views

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 4:05:11
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian

quote:

give some examples. what are you thinking of exactly when you say this ?


Errr......Las ketchup?

I dont have a specific example but there have been a lot of posting to Youtube videos of young players who whilst technically amazing, lose some "flamenconess" and border on Jazz and sometimes appear to be simply playing jazz in flamenco compas. I hope this does not become universally accepted as flamenco.

I dont know the future either...and you are right, stuff that is innovative now is on the line. Here are some examples of new stuff that I don't think is flamenco. ...for example Ojos de Bruja won the grammy for best flamenco act...and whilst they have flamenco guitars and flamenco dancer and cajon...and really are amazing musicians, I really wouldnt catagorise their stuff as flamenco (despite the obviously heavy influence) There are too many other influences from Hiphop and techno etc...but who knows what time will tell. Personally i think their stuff will always be regarded as fusion.

All right what about that track by Bjork and Raimundo Amador "so broken"

Now here is a spanish gypsy guitar player and Bjork singing with (for me) all the duende of a great flamenco singer. Its spine chilling but its still not flamenco.

I dont know what else to add but can quote a published interview that i did with Gerardo Nuñez 4 years ago on this very question

"so what did the flamencos en Jerez think when you were experimenting with jazz and mixing in music outside of traditional flamenco?"

Yeah, well there were people who dont accept that we, the guitarists in flamenco, study and evolve and make advances. Now with the guitar we study more jazz, we practise other chords, other harmonies and this is musically much richer. but there are a lot of people who think we have to play flamenco like it was 50 or 60 years ago but this always happens. In my town the people know because I made a traditional record with "El Indio gitano" and I worked with him in traditional fiestas. They think i am "the prodigal son" In other words they know I know flamenco and its roots . They now respect the fact that I have done things in other types of music, but always in a way as to say " oh one day he'll come back"

But has it been difficult to progress because many peoples mentality may be "thats not really flamenco"

Yeah, this is something that takes time to change because flamenco is a young art that is being created all the time between all of us. when you hear something that you like, it can be made to fit into flamenco. I think to say whether something is flamenco or isnt flamenco......to be a flamenco is to be an artist. The artist has to be a flamenco. If the artist is flamenco then everything he does will have a flamenco flavour.

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Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2009 4:52:24
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