RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: << < 1 [2]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Yeah, this is something that takes time to change because flamenco is a young art that is being created all the time between all of us. when you hear something that you like, it can be made to fit into flamenco. I think to say whether something is flamenco or isnt flamenco......to be a flamenco is to be an artist. if the artist is flamenco then everything he does will have a flamenco flavour.

hes a smart man

i like it ofcourse expecially cause we think the same

the artists previous work/ education defines weather its flamenco or not...its unfair but it dosent make it any less real

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 4:56:52

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

Hmmm.......thats a whole other thread. Anyway thank you for this enjoyable debate.

You said that you considered "bolero" an acceptable palo now. Supposing Vicente recorded a Calypso on his next album. Would that by your definition of previous work /education be Flamenco?

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 5:09:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

You said that you considered "bolero" an acceptable palo now

well no...not if you oversiplifie it like that..i am talking in context...the the bolero is sorrunded by nothing but strong palos on that album..i see it as flamenco in a general sense..

quote:

Supposing Vicente recorded a Calypso on his next album

again depends on the stuff sorounding it but yes..i guess i would find the flamenco in it...vicente cant stop beeing vicente just because hes doing a calypso..i wont consider it a flamenco palo but i will find flamenco in it..in a general sense..

...if its on a flamenco album

Warning lol its hard to explain why i think the way i think without going to weird places and talking about stuff we cant define....i am talking grey areas..

Do you think that flamenco only exists on a peticular palo ? flamenco is a litlle bigger and a litlle more complicated than any rules ( the rules we placed on it are just general guidelines we placed on it because of our need to define, but its just general and self inflicted) it goes way beyond that, there are things we just cant define, explain and understand..( aire, duende) well all think we know what it is and might have even experienced it but we dont know exactly why it happens or what happens or when and why it dosent all the time...and we will find ways to explain it because we dont like the idea of not beeing able too but the reality is we have no idea

imo...

just like the subconcious part of our brain...we dont know much about it

I view it more as an atitude, a feeling, a way of expresing something, a lifestyle, a state of mind...and a small amount of it its just purely unknown.(why sometimes it feels the way it does and others it dosent...)..why is it a shock that a established flamenco artist who clearely has "flamenco"...can expres it in other places too ?

I am not looking for a pat on the back for beeing flamenco aware

or acceptance for the way i think the way i do..I would never impose it on anyone

however after about 300 flamenco albums and years and years of listening I feel like i am qualified enough and heard enough to be in charge of the way i asses things, for myself atlist ...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 5:27:36

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

I not sure I agree with you exactly about the Bolero. I think its a beautiful piece of guitar playing and certainly very Vicente. However I think it it simply a flamenco artist playing a bolero. I dont think its flamenco. I think if he did a calypso it would be a flamenco artist doing calypso. I do find it annoying that other players are putting boleros on their albums now too.
Youve gone 180 degrees on what you said earlier. Vicente plays it with a lot of aire and with a lot of feel and he certainly puts his own individuality into that piece....but by your own definition its not an accepted palo yet and to me falls outside of what I consider to be flamenco.

I think Cigala and Bebo, tomatito and michel camilo, Paco de lucia and john mclauglin, Pitingu and the london soul choir.....they are all flamenco artists doing things other than flamenco. Dont get me wrong, I like a lot of it but to catagorise it, one would have to call it fusion.

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 5:59:12

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Youve gone 180 degrees on what you said earlier

lol I know...but not really..that was the simple quick, black and white way of defining it..the eazy way....I fought really hard to remain there..it was alot more civilised.. this is talking about things hard to explain and define, no facts..people either agree or disagree, see it or dont lol

this is the complicated, unclear, grey areas...the deeper you look in the more complicated it gets...the harder to explain the harder to define..

do you think flamenco exists only in the form or in the artist playing it ?
does the artist bring flamenco to the form or does the form give the Artist flamenco ? if that was the case everyones buleria should have the same amount of aire..and Moraito wouldnt be Moraito

do you understand what i mean when I say I hear flamenco in something ? i dont mean i call something thats not a solea a solea..

its the very reason i didnt think that going deep into it would clear anything up for anyone..

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 6:03:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

Youve gone 180 degrees on what you said earlier

lol I know...but not really..that was the simple quick, black and white way of defining it..the eazy way....I fought really hard to remain there lol

this is the complicated, unclear, grey areas...the deeper you look in the more complicated it gets...the harder to explain the harder to define..

do you think flamenco exists only in the form or in the artist playing it ?
does the artist bring flamenco to the form or does the form give the Artist flamenco ? if that was the case everyones buleria should have the same amount of aire..and Moraito wouldnt be Moraito

its the very reason i didnt think that going deep into it would clear anything up for anyone..

We all draw our own lines. For me, it is about context. To quote music that is not flamenco, but in a bulerias during juerga between letras, that is flamenco to me. The way it is done, not the notes themselves or the artist doing it or who composed it. Another example, paco and mclaughlin's Chiquito. Clear fusion, flamenco with "jazz" or a certain type of jazz. But he plays the same melodies as a "falseta" for Joaquin Grilo's baile por Alegria. In that context it becomes flamenco, but it was not before in the other context, to ME.

Again, that is just me. Agujetas would say neither example is flamenco, but that is HIM.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 6:19:49

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

We all draw our own lines. For me, it is about context

Me too..its all about the context and artist doing it..

quote:

Agujetas would say neither example is flamenco, but that is HIM

He would say whatever u wanted him to say if .....you PAID !

him

quote:

Agujetas

"I get paid I get paid I get paid "

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 6:27:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

Just to be clear I would not say that to define something as "flamenco" you need the artist, and likewise, I would not say ANYTHING a true flamenco artist does is flamenco. For example, in Rito y Geografia Chocolate demoed some spanish pop tune, with a different voice, to show he liked other music and could sing other ways. But that is not flamenco for sure.

Now if you have an orchestra play the melody of solea, the cante i mean, say Solea de Alcala, well, even though those are not flamenco artists playing it, the melody is what it is. It IS a Solea, and solea IS flamenco. You have an orchestra interpreting flamenco, pretty clear. About other palos, like I said earlier, I put Villancico and Rumba in a different category than other flamenco palos, but that is just me. I think when you have song forms that are done by NONE flamenco artists, they dont' necessarily need to be defined as flamenco, just because most flamenco's interpret them. Like Sevillanas also, we had that debate before.

I always try to put it in perspective for folks with the example of jazz and blues. Every jazz musician knows and plays the blues. But the blues, as a song form, is not necessarily jazz music. Blues players are not jazz musicians necessarily. Same deal with many forms interpreted by flamenco artists, including rumba sevillanas, even fandango. So blues is clear. But what makes a jazz artist "jazz"? Well, you have to know the standards and play them in a jazz way. There are many styles of interpretation, but when you play a jazz standard, thats it you are playing jazz. Likewise, there are no interpretors of TRUE and good solea, siguiryas, or bulerias, that are not flamencos (an orchestra would not be a true interpretor in other words). Beyond that, taste and understanding will draw the line for each individual.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 6:48:38

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ricardo)

Ok I agree .. alot of this is judged from case to case...theres no full proof general way of defining it...each case on its own merit, context, circumstances...and its all just subject to our own interpretation..

theres, flaws, holes and contradictions in all of our self inflicted lines if you looked to find em or tried to use it as a general guidelines.. but when judging from case to case, each on its own merit, context it would always make sence to us..

I am sorry if anyone is looking for clear, simple, general lines that work all across ...the obvious ones are but they dont account for all of it...there are the grey, not so black and white ones too that arent always obvious and writen in stone...but dosent make them any less present in the way one formulates his views and inerprets things...

and past the few general/ obvious ones all that is left is views and personal feelings

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 6:59:54

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

do you think flamenco exists only in the form or in the artist playing it ?
does the artist bring flamenco to the form or does the form give the Artist flamenco ?
do you understand what i mean when I say I hear flamenco in something ?

I think if the artist is a true artist, he/she is going to interpret or express something in a particular way. In the case of flamenco artists, they are going to play material in a flamenco way. I know what you mean when you say you can hear the flamenco in something....but thats not in itself flamenco.
Seperating the form from the art is not possible but the form has to be flamenco to be flamenco. If that were not so, Vicente could play "dueling banjos" in a flamenco way and it could be categorised as flamenco.
Also Ricardo makes a good point, an orchestra playing flamenco is also Flamenco. The form is vital to the art. If the form is changed then you have a different art.

Imagine if we took the same argument with line dancing and flamenco. If Eva yerbabuena does a flamenco version of line dancing, is that Flamenco?

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 7:33:28

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

but thats not in itself flamenco.
Seperating the form from the art is not possible but the form has to be flamenco to be flamenco

the art itself is not just the palos ...the art itself its also the knolodge stored and experienced accuired though it in the artist...

quote:

Imagine if we took the same argument with line dancing and flamenco. If Eva yerbabuena does a flamenco version of line dancing, is that Flamenco?

If Yerbabuena does it and she intends it to be, and she does it in a "flamenco way" as you say then it is

I am talking very fine print, special circumstances, grey areas ...i think u are still thiking black and white, general rules

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 7:50:25

jonc

Posts: 33
Joined: Oct. 24 2008
From: New England, USia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

Well put, Pimientito.

Being recognized as an artist and innovator within a particular form -- in this instance flamenco -- seems to mean that whatsoever the artist takes on outside their recognized style is always going to be understood in some sense as relative to their dominant language, at least to an informed listener.

I think that the uninformed listeners can frustrate by taking pleasure in a performance that is outside formalist boundaries of flamenco without recognizing that the boundaries are there to begin with. Especially in such cases as Paco's Entre dos aguas, where he becomes a superstar to masses of people with a rumba ... a lot of us would rather listen to bulerias anyday, and value his art by this measure before worshipping the man.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 7:54:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to jonc)

quote:

I think that the uninformed listeners can frustrate by taking pleasure in a performance that is outside formalist boundaries of flamenco without recognizing that the boundaries are there to begin with.

one could say the same about the oposite...

the uninformed listeners might not be able to hear the "flamenco" ouside its clearely and safely marked lines and context

...just because You dont or cant what makes you so sure others cant ?

its hard to find when searching for it with a rule book in your hands ...forghet the clear rules forghet the books it gets a litlle more complicated then that

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 7:57:05

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

I'm calling my lawyer

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 8:04:42

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

lol man i didnt wanna get into all this sh*t

but i got sucked in..i realize this might be pushing some of you a litlle more then u are prepared to go, I myself hate it when people overcomplicate things more then they need to be, its why i didnt wanna get into it lol...but I guess i got myself in ....I dont peticulary enjoy talking about it because thinking about ways to clearely explain it just gives me a hedaiche and in the end we will all still walk away with our ideas.....those that will see it like me will see it like me and those that will see it like you will continue to see it like you....and then there will be others that see it different to both of us

For the sake of not getting into it I would have been happy keep it clear and simple, general.. black and white but i got sucked in to details/ grey areas and some of the exceptions..lol

besides an handfull of general obvious ones...there are no clear general guidlines and in the end everything its down to context

U cant talk about general rules of flamenco without contradicting yourself from case to case

Pimientito

I am not disagreeing with you as much as you think

...like i said I am now in the special circumstances/ grey areas, very small exceptions...majority of you points i agree with..but i am sorry i dont think its all as black and white and as "general" as we would all like it to be.....not for me anyway...each has theyr own way of assesing things..

if it makes you feel any better..."technically" and on paper I think you are right on all your points

however just because i cant prove something dosent mean i dont feel it..

the silent moments in the midlle of a buleria brake (when compas is in the air) are just silent pauses...but in context u can hear them and feel them..they are very much present..

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 8:06:33

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

Here's the deal. Flamenco is like porn, I know it when I see it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 9:10:27

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Here's the deal. Flamenco is like porn, I know it when I see it.

Amen to that

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 9:12:37

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Flamenco is like porn

I doubly laughing 'cos a spanish marching band has just gone past my appartment playing an out of tune version of "entre dos aguas".

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 9:39:43

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Here's the deal. Flamenco is like porn, I know it when I see it.

HAhahaha.... Yes.... And what would you say to this "firefox"-add ? Do they wanna tell all the pornosurfers to use firefox????

(Sorry off topic) I mean,... do you also know if something is for porn if you see it??

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 10:06:52

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Doitsujin)

YESSSSSSSSS!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 10:11:33

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

'cos a spanish marching band has just gone past my appartment playing an out of tune version of "entre dos aguas".

that would be interesting lol

anything played out of tune or out of breath on a trumpet expecially is funny lol

trumpet is one of those instruments that more often then not feels just on the verge of beeing out of tune or off pitch...u think any second now....

i dont know why i always expect it lol..its probably one of the funniest instruments out there..

I wonder what happens if you are a trumpet player and get the hicups in the midlle of a show ...of burp, or sneaze ..

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 10:14:50

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

When we were kids we used to go to the village green on sundays where the salvation army brass band were practicing. A group of us would sit on the front row and suck lemons. This made the brass players salivate so much they couldnt play properly

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 11:37:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

trumpet is one of those instruments that more often then not feels just on the verge of beeing out of tune or off pitch...u think any second now.... i dont know why i always expect it lol..its probably one of the funniest instruments out there

Yeah, I played trumpet in the school orchestra as a kid.
It's a difficult instrument to control, to keep balancing on that "sweet spot".
It's like walking a tightwire, with chaos and horrible noises and certain death either side of it.

That's why it's so amazing to hear folk like Miles Davis.

(I've always said you've got to at least try to play an instrument first before you can truly appreciate the masters!)

Speaking of fusion and stuff, Ailsa's link to the YouTube clips of Mike Figgis's "Flamenco Women" led me to this...

The trumpeter is actually Mike Figgis himself, who is an amateur player and a great enthusiast.
(I think he was having his "Alfred Hitchcock" moment there..

)

But I think it really works!
As much as Viejin's "bending" notes does!
Still muy Flamenco IMO.

BTW...The clips on YouTube are just really of the performance itself.
The best part of the movie is all the blood, sweat and arguing that goes on during the rehearsals!

Figgis is a good director!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 12:04:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

BTW...The clips on YouTube are just really of the performance itself.
The best part of the movie is all the blood, sweat and arguing that goes on during the rehearsals!

Figgis is a good director!

yes i absoluteley love that documentary!!

I love the performance...the dancers costumes were a litlle try hard but i totaly love the dance material and figgs enthusiasm for it..I guess he was trying to sell it to a different type of audience and using a different image with those fahion costumes... the audience annoys me a litlle...u know all the yappies and actors and wannabes, majority were spanish but didnt look like they had seen much flamenco before or looked very proud of it.....i dont know it could be just me but everytime i see it i get a vibe when i see theyr faces.....kind of patronising to the artists or had this air about them like the performers were not theyr equals..( watch the documentary again...look at the faces, reactions and some of the looks the camera catches)

felled like the only reason some were there was just to suck up to the hollywood director and be in a american documentary..and normally wouldnt be cought dead at a flamenco show..

felled like some of the best flamenco artists were waisted on unapreciative, spoilt rich fakes...

but it is posiblle also that i read it wrong

...its just the vibe i get everytime i watch it..

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 12:20:23

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

..and normally wouldnt be cought dead at a flamenco show..

I never understood that expression. When I'm dead, I won't give a rat's tucus where you catch me.

_____________________________

Callidus et iracundus.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 12:41:29

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

When I'm dead, I won't give a rat's tucus where you catch me

well it just goes to further state how much someone does not wanna be cought somewhere...the whole statement feeds on the concept that majority of people feel like u...dont care where u catch em when they are dead lol...thats what makes this an even strogher statement of how much u do not wanna be somewhere that u detest to beeing there even when you shouldnt care or wont even be aware of where u are

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2009 12:43:57

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal (in reply to Florian)

quote:

felled like the only reason some were there was just to suck up to the hollywood director and be in a american documentary..and normally wouldnt be cought dead at a flamenco show..

Florian,

The problem was that filming schedule was in the middle of the afternoon, so they couldn't get anyone with a proper day job to attend.
So that just left the out-of-work actors and writers, artists, poets and penniless intellectuals of Madrid, who heard through the bush telegraph that there was some foreign guy putting on a music gig and was offering free food to everyone who turned up.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2009 0:40:16