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RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"?
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bb
Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
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 RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pimientito)
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quote:
Yes you can access the upper finger board nicely with the guitar at 45 degrees, but you would agree that classical players do not and can not play with anything like the power of the flamenco players.
Of course they don't play with the power of flamenco players, but that is due to the right-hand playing techniques they use and the ways they think classical music should sound rather than guitar neck angles.
We each have physical differences and we have each spent countless hours playing the ways we individually play. Those differences make our individual methods seem best, and other methods seem awkward, to each of us.
Beyond that, we each have different objectives. The dream of many on this forum is to be able to play like PDL. That is not my objective nor is it the objective of some of the other members. Though PDL's technical playing abilities are astounding, the end-result is not music I enjoy or want to be able to play.
That is nothing anyone should be offended by. My position is not that his music is bad or that others who like it are wrong, but merely that it is music I don't enjoy. You may like the color cyan. I may prefer red. You may like mayonnaise. I may prefer curry sauce. Those differences don't make cyan, red, mayonnaise, curry sauce or the people who like them intrinsically good or bad. They are just personal preferences.
Someone trying to emulate PDL may have more success if they attempt to do everything as much as possible like he does them. Someone trying to play like Sabicas, Paco del Gastor, or someone else, may have more success if they try to do everything as much as possible like those players did them.
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Date Apr. 11 2008 13:36:42
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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A negra guitar with machine heads is more uncomfortable to hold up in trad postion than a light peg head blanca. So that makes a difference. I restate what John O said that I always say...don't be afraid to move around in your chair and switch between two positions, or more, during practice and performance. And limit the time you spend looking over the neck at the fingerboard. Look up or out, or practice in front of the mirror...your neck and back will thank you later. I am afraid a device such as A frame, the one pictured, the cushion etc, forces you to stay in one position most of the time, so you won't be as free to change postions when practicing or performing.
Honestly I think the best would be standing up with a strap, I do that for rumba gigs and it is the most comfy, but lets be honest about what that would look like accompanying a flamenco show. One needs to think at least a little bit about what the tradition calls for an why, and respect that. But not at the expense of physical discomfort of course.
Ricardo
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www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 11 2008 15:21:51
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ChiyoDad)
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I think it was Porhen who wrote that the first thing a guitar student has to learn is the traditional flamenco position. He said yes, of course it's dificult, but that can't be helped, it's flamenco! The trad position allows you to pivot making it simple to turn to follow a dancer around a stage, or turn around to face a singer as need be. It allows the guitar to project better if you keep the back of the guitar away from your body a bit when there is no mic. It looks cool too.
But along comes Paco and blows everyone away with his playing, and he has this more relaxed position. So, now many guitarists use that, and it's now cool.
When a major flamenco player uses one of these supports, it will become cool, and others will follow. I sometime use a weird position, and looking at it on vid, it looks bad. But if I played really well, it wouldn't matter. To the original poster, no, it's not flamenco, not yet anyway. But do you care if it helps you play better? My back is absolutely hammered from years of playing and other activities. I just can't sit in a chair playing for three- four hours anymore no matter what position.
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Date Apr. 11 2008 16:23:40
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to bb)
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Pimiento, When you listen to Paco playing in trad position, Which he does on a lot of earlyer TVE television programs, do you then hear a big difference in the right hand? I dont.
There are recordings with him and Pepe de Lucia, where he uses some of the same falsetas as on Fuente y Caudal and honestly I dont really hear any difference in the way the sound is produced. It sounds as good as on the record, where I asume he plays cross leg.
Also listen to some recordings with Cepero and Camaron. Cepero, playing trad. position has all the attack you can askfor in the right hand.
Another thing is to compare with an older generation. Yes, I agree. Its another sound, but maybe some of it because of recordings, or maybe its all about different ethics, that they wanted to sound like that.
Paco made an enourmous impact. Everyone wanted to sound like him, look like him, sit like him. His sound was so different, but my feeling is that this sound, he learned when he played trad position or that at least he able to produce it whatever sitting position.
I personally dont care how people sit down with their guitar. I sit the way I do because its what suits me.
BTW, a lot of local players here, good ones to, play with the guitar on the lap, no trad. position, no Paco style.
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Date Apr. 14 2008 12:59:43
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Excellent comments from all. It's interesting how one thing leads to another. Might get off topic, but lots of things come up on the way.
Doitsujin: Might be a tuner on Gerardo's guitar. I've seen them on the side near the neck, where some players keep a dab of vaseline for their fingertips, or even inside (!) the guitar.
Pimientito: About Paco changing his right hand since his first recordings, it sounds to me like his attack (pulsación) is much more dynamic. He "touches" the strings (right hand) using a wider range of pressure. Sometimes the string just slips out from under his finger, and sometimes it jumps because he presses harder. It's a much more efficient way to play and it allows for greater control and tonal color. But it sounds lighter and more "ethereal" to me, and I greatly prefer his old way of playing. It's more satisfying for me, like dark tobacco, full-bodied beer or a greasy stew.  The light touch and the predominance of index, middle and ring fingers on the treble strings can really turn me off sometimes. I want to hear that thumb on the bass strings!!! But that's just my comment on playing in general, as applies to lots of players. Paco is still the best IMO, and he's always thumbing the basses.
At home, my favorite playing position is sitting on the couch, like Ron, but I'll change from traditional to modern to keep my legs from going numb. If I play at a party or something, I'll change my sitting position in the chair to every possible alternative, just to remain comfortable. But when I started (before I even had a couch, haha), I always played sitting in a chair, with both feet on the floor and the neck held up at an angle. I found that it's extremely important to have support for my back, so I'd always lean back on the chair. Playing on a stool without a backrest will wreck my back, shoulders, upper arms and neck, but leaning back onto the chair lets me play for hours on end with no stiffness the next day. So, because of the back-support issue, I don't think that playing on the couch is such a bad thing, although I remember that it wasn't comfortable in the beginning. Maybe playing on the couch is the ultramodern playing position! 
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Date Apr. 16 2008 11:05:11
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FlamencoNZ
Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008
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RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Samarto)
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My five cents worth: Because I learned to hold the guitar the classical way I am having real trouble holding it any other way. Holding it the flamenco way I experience several problems. I would like to play in the traditional flamenco position but:
1) My hand is not perpendicular to the strings,
2) If I change left hand position up along the neck, then the neck tends to move away (up, donw, forward) because of my right arm trying to hold the guitar towards me,
3) If I cross me legs then it feels quite uncomfortable in a certain spot,
4) I loose accuracy in both hands,
5) It feels totally unnatural to me.
I keep trying the flamenco position and I am very slowly getting better at it but the classical position is soooo comfortable to me. By the way I am also using an A-frame support which is just the best thing since sliced cheese! I do not lick the suctions cups and they hold fine. After I remove the A-frame I usually polish the location where the cups sit with a soft cloth and comes up nice and clean after that. My guitar is a Montalvo Flamenca Negra with a lacquer finish. Once a month I use furniture polish on it and man you should see it shine!
Anyway, it might be un-flamenco to play with a guitar support and even holding it the classical way but hey, I don't care. If it feels comfortable then don't worry what anybody else thinks about it.
Cheers,
Dan.
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Date Apr. 21 2008 3:39:18
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