RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"?

RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=89197

Message

bb -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 11 2008 13:36:42)
quote: Yes you can access the upper finger board nicely with the guitar at 45 degrees, but you would agree that classical players do not and can not play with anything like the power of the flamenco players. Of course they don't play with the power of flamenco players, but that is due to the right-hand playing techniques they use and the ways they think classical music should sound rather than guitar neck angles. We each have physical differences and we have each spent countless hours playing the ways we individually play. Those differences make our individual methods seem best, and other methods seem awkward, to each of us. Beyond that, we each have different objectives. The dream of many on this forum is to be able to play like PDL. That is not my objective nor is it the objective of some of the other members. Though PDL's technical playing abilities are astounding, the end-result is not music I enjoy or want to be able to play. That is nothing anyone should be offended by. My position is not that his music is bad or that others who like it are wrong, but merely that it is music I don't enjoy. You may like the color cyan. I may prefer red. You may like mayonnaise. I may prefer curry sauce. Those differences don't make cyan, red, mayonnaise, curry sauce or the people who like them intrinsically good or bad. They are just personal preferences. Someone trying to emulate PDL may have more success if they attempt to do everything as much as possible like he does them. Someone trying to play like Sabicas, Paco del Gastor, or someone else, may have more success if they try to do everything as much as possible like those players did them.

ChiyoDad -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 11 2008 14:44:20)
Thanks for all the insightful responses. [:)] Personally, I'm trying to gauge the level of acceptance that these devices have made. I'm learning flamenco through self-directed study right now but I intend to eventually work with a teacher (if I can find one nearby). I wouldn't want to be rejected as a student for going markedly against the grain. Reading that Paco Pena has used one is encouraging. Physically, I find it very difficult to play without a guitar support. None of the other positions work for me and I either find myself suffering the pins-and-needles after five minutes or aching badly after even a short practice session. [:(] Hopefully, my future instructor will be flexible with my "handicap".

Ricardo -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 11 2008 15:21:51)
A negra guitar with machine heads is more uncomfortable to hold up in trad postion than a light peg head blanca. So that makes a difference. I restate what John O said that I always say...don't be afraid to move around in your chair and switch between two positions, or more, during practice and performance. And limit the time you spend looking over the neck at the fingerboard. Look up or out, or practice in front of the mirror...your neck and back will thank you later. I am afraid a device such as A frame, the one pictured, the cushion etc, forces you to stay in one position most of the time, so you won't be as free to change postions when practicing or performing. Honestly I think the best would be standing up with a strap, I do that for rumba gigs and it is the most comfy, but lets be honest about what that would look like accompanying a flamenco show. One needs to think at least a little bit about what the tradition calls for an why, and respect that. But not at the expense of physical discomfort of course. Ricardo

Mark2 -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 11 2008 16:23:40)
I think it was Porhen who wrote that the first thing a guitar student has to learn is the traditional flamenco position. He said yes, of course it's dificult, but that can't be helped, it's flamenco! The trad position allows you to pivot making it simple to turn to follow a dancer around a stage, or turn around to face a singer as need be. It allows the guitar to project better if you keep the back of the guitar away from your body a bit when there is no mic. It looks cool too. But along comes Paco and blows everyone away with his playing, and he has this more relaxed position. So, now many guitarists use that, and it's now cool. When a major flamenco player uses one of these supports, it will become cool, and others will follow. I sometime use a weird position, and looking at it on vid, it looks bad. But if I played really well, it wouldn't matter. To the original poster, no, it's not flamenco, not yet anyway. But do you care if it helps you play better? My back is absolutely hammered from years of playing and other activities. I just can't sit in a chair playing for three- four hours anymore no matter what position.

gato -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 11 2008 21:51:07)
I just like to cross my legs and be comfortable, and I also like to hold the guitar in the classical position with my left foot on a foot stool. Sometimes I just like to hold it in my crotch and under my right arm keeping it against my chest. It all depends how I feel and of course what the situation demands. And like Ricardo says, switch positions but also try to stretch your spine now and then. I think that helps. As no one can maintain a completely straight back with out discipline, and that means that we just have to keep on it. We have to maintain our posture but that doesn't mean we won't loose it now and then also. A good exercise is to practice a good posture all of the time, but remember that it's ok to wake up and re align ourselves. When you make it a daily practice you really build up a lot of strength. At first you have to think about it and then it becomes more natural. It really has to be one of your goals. And, yes tradition is great as long as we are free to keep it while innovating. I'm more worried about stagnation than loosing tradition. So many people are keeping tradition but, innovation is really only up to me. Tradition is up to the culture (for which artists belong) while innovation is the responsibility of the artist, and sometimes we have to break from tradition while sometimes finding ourselves right back where we started. It's a kind of great democracy where the arts live. I think that the hardest thing is that tradition is so important, but stagnation can bring an end to tradition, and the only thing that can save it is the evolutionary process of innovation. Sounds great but it's a lot of work. And it all depends on the reception of whatever arts by the cultural aspect. Gary [:D]

veet -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 12 2008 13:27:27)
El Carbonero in Jerez calls them "anti-flamenco."

Ron.M -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 12 2008 19:55:28)
I'm sure he doesn't mean anti- flamenco, but un- flamenco. I'm also sure that he, from the city of Terremoto and Manuel Morao must have seen a zillion hot-shot foreign guitarists with their mechanical aids and breathing excercises, special diets and home-grown falsetas pass through his school and wonder WTF. cheers, Ron

veet -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 13 2008 11:31:30)
well, the exact term he used, with great clarity, was "anti-flamenco." I was taking his class with a friend from Germany who used one of those gadgets every day in class, and Carbonero doesn't mince words about his likes and dislikes.

NormanKliman -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 13 2008 17:42:13)
Hi Gato, Very interesting observations about tradition vs. innovation. I feel that everyone has to go back to the well every once in a while, because it's a heck of a lot deeper than meets the eye, and as long as we're not just mimicking, playing note for note, etc., there's no danger of stagnation. But an artist has to do things his or her own way. And it's such a personal issue, deciding when you've heard/seen enough and "breaking out on your own." Somebody said that Picasso once said that bad artists copy and good artists steal. [:D]

henrym3483 -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 13 2008 17:54:31)
quote: I was taking his class with a friend from Germany who used one of those gadgets every day in class, and Carbonero doesn't mince words about his likes and dislikes. Yeah i know, manuel didnt like the way i shaped my thumb nail grabbed my hand and cut it with a nail cutter then told me to file it. [:D] he was right though because in the stroke i was using too much nail and not enough callous. boy did my thumb blister [:D]

Wannabee -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 14 2008 4:39:00)
Interesting responses. Just an extra thing to think about, just take a look on youtube or in photographs and see how many players actually use the traditional position. Not many, I can only think of a few myself.

Pimientito -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 14 2008 10:22:03)
quote: that is due to the right-hand playing techniques they use and the ways they think classical music should sound rather than guitar neck angles. Hmmm...Im going to have to disagree. The styles are different of course but I'm saying the right hand technique could never have developed in the way it has today without changing the playing position. However I can see that you enjoy the older or more traditional styles of flamenco...and PDL certainly broke that mould, which is not to everyones taste. There has been a wealth of beautiful material written in the 50s and 60s. Some of it it is sadly dying out now and your traditional playing position might suit this style very well. I am not suggesting that one has to play with pacos technique. If this is the music you enjoy, keep playing, keep enjoying and keep it alive! However you might like to listen to Miguel Orchandos new album who has recorded classics by niño ricardo, sabicas, escudero etc. and the rafael riquini album "meastros". Also check out Gerardo Nuñezs version of impetu. These guys play that material better with modern technique than the original composers

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 14 2008 12:59:43)
Pimiento, When you listen to Paco playing in trad position, Which he does on a lot of earlyer TVE television programs, do you then hear a big difference in the right hand? I dont. There are recordings with him and Pepe de Lucia, where he uses some of the same falsetas as on Fuente y Caudal and honestly I dont really hear any difference in the way the sound is produced. It sounds as good as on the record, where I asume he plays cross leg. Also listen to some recordings with Cepero and Camaron. Cepero, playing trad. position has all the attack you can askfor in the right hand. Another thing is to compare with an older generation. Yes, I agree. Its another sound, but maybe some of it because of recordings, or maybe its all about different ethics, that they wanted to sound like that. Paco made an enourmous impact. Everyone wanted to sound like him, look like him, sit like him. His sound was so different, but my feeling is that this sound, he learned when he played trad position or that at least he able to produce it whatever sitting position. I personally dont care how people sit down with their guitar. I sit the way I do because its what suits me. BTW, a lot of local players here, good ones to, play with the guitar on the lap, no trad. position, no Paco style.

Pimientito -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 15 2008 22:27:10)
Ok..I am not trying to argue here. I had a look at your video Anders and now I understand the confusion. You play with the guitar neck slightly raised but to me that is a very modern position. You can still get those techniques out of the guitar in the way you play. I am talking about the guitar with the neck at 45 degrees or above. When I was talking about the traditional position, I was thinking of this........ Try playing "la Barrosa" with the guitar like this!! Thats all i'm tryin to say. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

bb -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 1:51:31)
The guitar in that photo is being held at an angle greater than 45 degrees. However, there is no reason la Barrosa couldn't be played in that position. This is the traditional 45-degree flamenco playing position that I use and that I have been referring to:

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 7:10:04)
Pimiento, To me, the fact that the neck is raised does not matter to much. Gerardo Nuñez plays with an angle more or less like mine. (He´s just a LOOOOOOT better) I dont like playing 45 degrees. It feels comfortable, but maybe the left hand doesnt suffer to much. Look a cello or doule bass players, they are capable of doing quite ncredible stuff. The right hand is more fixed when playing trad. position. You simply have to put moe weight on the guitar in order to fix it. But still, take a look at those Paco recordings I mentioned and tell me what you think.

Pimientito -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 8:13:39)
quote: The right hand is more fixed when playing trad. position. Exactly my point! The early material that Paco played (whilst executed perfectly) was not on the same level of complexity as stuff he was doing in the 70s, 80s and 90s. You can get away with playing Panaderos and Tico Tico in the trad position. Your position as I said looks good. The guitar does not need to be exactly horizontal but a 30 degree angle or less constitutes to my mind a more modern position as opposed to the photo i posted As for double bass players...they are freaks of nature!![:D] I have no idea how some of them get that stuff out of a double bass. bb - your video demonstrates very well what I was saying. The material that was being played was mainly in 2 left hand positions with the vast majority in the first. The right hand is very straight forward. Unless you have ever had a go yourself at ever tackling some of pacos composition for example from sirrocco, you will not understand just how much more complex it is. Its not just a bit harder, its a whole different way of using the right hand. Its actually easier to have the guitar more horizontal in this case. Thats why Paco changed position. I see your point and everything you say is valid until you start talking about music of the modern level of complexity. To say there is no reason La Barrossa couldnt be played in the traditional position suggests you dont fully understand how difficult it is to execute.

Doitsujin -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 8:40:02)
I watched some youtube vids of gerardo nunez and saw a wooden thing on his guitar in the position of a guitar-support. Maybe its a guitar-support what he uses.. If not I cant explain what it is. Strange thing.. Maybe he has docked a cassette recorder on his guitar and it looks like a guitar-support. That could be the reason why he always plays so perfectly... Check this out and ,... yes maybe tell us what it could be. I dont know.. Maybe a guitar-tuner? But a strange place no? Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

NormanKliman -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 11:05:11)
Excellent comments from all. It's interesting how one thing leads to another. Might get off topic, but lots of things come up on the way. Doitsujin: Might be a tuner on Gerardo's guitar. I've seen them on the side near the neck, where some players keep a dab of vaseline for their fingertips, or even inside (!) the guitar. Pimientito: About Paco changing his right hand since his first recordings, it sounds to me like his attack (pulsación) is much more dynamic. He "touches" the strings (right hand) using a wider range of pressure. Sometimes the string just slips out from under his finger, and sometimes it jumps because he presses harder. It's a much more efficient way to play and it allows for greater control and tonal color. But it sounds lighter and more "ethereal" to me, and I greatly prefer his old way of playing. It's more satisfying for me, like dark tobacco, full-bodied beer or a greasy stew. [:)] The light touch and the predominance of index, middle and ring fingers on the treble strings can really turn me off sometimes. I want to hear that thumb on the bass strings!!! But that's just my comment on playing in general, as applies to lots of players. Paco is still the best IMO, and he's always thumbing the basses. At home, my favorite playing position is sitting on the couch, like Ron, but I'll change from traditional to modern to keep my legs from going numb. If I play at a party or something, I'll change my sitting position in the chair to every possible alternative, just to remain comfortable. But when I started (before I even had a couch, haha), I always played sitting in a chair, with both feet on the floor and the neck held up at an angle. I found that it's extremely important to have support for my back, so I'd always lean back on the chair. Playing on a stool without a backrest will wreck my back, shoulders, upper arms and neck, but leaning back onto the chair lets me play for hours on end with no stiffness the next day. So, because of the back-support issue, I don't think that playing on the couch is such a bad thing, although I remember that it wasn't comfortable in the beginning. Maybe playing on the couch is the ultramodern playing position! [:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 16 2008 21:47:49)
Sorry Pimientito, this piece is hard as anything I have played of Paco's: I admit, it is not as comfy as cross leg, on the left arm/shoulder as meantioned, and if hold the guitar too tight with right wrist so your left can jump, you build up too much tension. But I think anything CAN be played in trad position. My only point is, WHY WOULD YOU? I mean if it is not comfy. Doit, that is Gerardo's tuner. It picks up vibration to tune, so I guess that was the best spot. He uses lots of altered tunings when he plays live, but honestly I have not seen him perform live lately with that thing attached. Ricardo

Pimientito -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 17 2008 9:59:42)
quote: It's more satisfying for me, like dark tobacco, full-bodied beer or a greasy stew. ..or a nubile tatooed Hatian girl on a moonlit beach, a suckling roast pig on an open fire, a frothy jar of spiced mead in a smokey inn... I'm coming round for dinner!! [:D][:D] Seriously, its a fair comment. Clearly Pacos modern stuff is not to everyones taste but it still doesn't stop it being amazing. Ricardo - Paco could probably play fairly well standing on his head. For us mere mortals, I'll conceed, its probably theoretically possible to tackle some of that material in the trad position...but why would anyone when its harder and less comfy...I mean this is challenging enough without adding extra obstacles...and anyway I still maintain that the technique could not have developed/evolved in the first place had the position not changed to accomadate it.

bb -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 19 2008 17:44:28)
quote: But I think anything CAN be played in trad position. My only point is, WHY WOULD YOU? I mean if it is not comfy. You shouldn't play in a position that is not comfortable after a reasonable trial period. However, new things that are actually superior often seem uncomfortable until someone becomes use to them. Consider a rock-music guitarist used to playing only with his thumb with a flamenco instructor trying to teach him to pick upper strings with i and m alternations. His reaction after a short period of frustrating practice might be, yes upper strings can be picked that way, but why would anyone want to pick them that way when it is so much easier to pick them with the thumb? Some players may never think the traditional 45-degree position is comfortable, regardless of how long they play that way. However, I found it uncomfortable and more difficult at first, but substantially superior after I eventually learned to play that way. I think other players willing to invest the time to required to learn to comfortably play that way would experience similar benefits.

FlamencoNZ -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 21 2008 3:39:18)
My five cents worth: Because I learned to hold the guitar the classical way I am having real trouble holding it any other way. Holding it the flamenco way I experience several problems. I would like to play in the traditional flamenco position but: 1) My hand is not perpendicular to the strings, 2) If I change left hand position up along the neck, then the neck tends to move away (up, donw, forward) because of my right arm trying to hold the guitar towards me, 3) If I cross me legs then it feels quite uncomfortable in a certain spot, 4) I loose accuracy in both hands, 5) It feels totally unnatural to me. I keep trying the flamenco position and I am very slowly getting better at it but the classical position is soooo comfortable to me. By the way I am also using an A-frame support which is just the best thing since sliced cheese! I do not lick the suctions cups and they hold fine. After I remove the A-frame I usually polish the location where the cups sit with a soft cloth and comes up nice and clean after that. My guitar is a Montalvo Flamenca Negra with a lacquer finish. Once a month I use furniture polish on it and man you should see it shine! Anyway, it might be un-flamenco to play with a guitar support and even holding it the classical way but hey, I don't care. If it feels comfortable then don't worry what anybody else thinks about it. Cheers, Dan.

bb -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 21 2008 4:33:00)
quote: 1) My hand is not perpendicular to the strings, I assume you are referring to your right hand. My right-hand fingers are much more perpendicular to the strings in traditional position than with the guitar neck low. It is difficult to visualize why that wouldn't be true for anyone with relatively normal body proportions. Maybe you are positioning your guitar neck too far back toward the rear. Carefully check to be sure your guitar neck is angled slightly forward like Juan Serrano is holding his guitar in this video. quote: 2) If I change left hand position up along the neck, then the neck tends to move away (up, donw, forward) because of my right arm trying to hold the guitar towards me, That problem also may be due to not rotating the guitar in azimuth so its neck protrudes slightly forward. My left hand position up and down the neck has no effect on the guitar position. If a guitar is being held correctly the left hand supports no weight whatsoever. It is easier to achieve the required stability if you sit on a relatively low chair so that your right knee is slightly higher than the upper part of your leg. After someone has mastered holding a guitar correctly in traditional position they can use a chair or stool of almost any height, but it is easier to obtain the required stability if you sit low.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 21 2008 7:34:12)
Dan, If you would like to hold your guitar in the trad. position, you could try putting one of these kitchen rubber clothes between your right leg and the guitar. It does that the guitar does not tend to slip on the leg and thus releases the right hand a LOT. If you watch the video I uploaded on this subject, you can see that it makes it possible for me to hold the guitar in a lower position. I dont like holding the guitar in 45 degrees. It feels unconfortable to me and it does that I cant switch to cross leg position if I feel like doing that because the guitar position will then be to different. I mainly play trad position, because of my back, but sometimes I cross the legs in order to not sit in the same position all the time.

Ron.M -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 21 2008 9:20:06)
I noticed that Paco Peña sometimes had strips of masking tape across the bottom of the guitar where it rests on the leg. First time I saw it I thought the guitar was broken or something, then he told me it was to prevent it slipping. cheers, Ron

FlamencoNZ -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 21 2008 23:17:51)
quote: ORIGINAL: bb My right-hand fingers are much more perpendicular to the strings in traditional position than with the guitar neck low. ............... Carefully check to be sure your guitar neck is angled slightly forward like Juan Serrano is holding his guitar in this video. I had another closer look why it is I am having trouble with the traditional flamenco position the way Juan Serrano does it. I am of average height with "normal" body proportions. So, that's not it. Like Serrano I am resting my upper right arm on top of the guitar with the inside of my elbow nicely bending around the edge of the guitar. This way my fingers are supposed to "fall" in the right position. Which is indeed the case. I now notice that the main difference is actually the distance between my fingers and the front of the guitar is less compared to the classical position. With the classical position the middle of my forearm rests on the front top edge of the guitar. This changes the mechanics quite considerably. Even in the classical way the neck of the guitar I keep at a 45 degree angle due to my A-frame support. I will experiment a bit more though with the traditional flamenco position. quote: If a guitar is being held correctly the left hand supports no weight whatsoever. I agree and I pretty much have that point sorted now. quote: ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson If you would like to hold your guitar in the trad. position, you could try putting one of these kitchen rubber clothes between your right leg and the guitar. It does that the guitar does not tend to slip on the leg and thus releases the right hand a LOT. Last night I tried some of that rubber anti-slip material. That works great. In fact I can now place/hold my guitar like Juan Serrano without using my left hand which is now able to move freely along the fret board without changing the position of the guitar. Holding the neck level with the ground doesn't work for me. I find at 45 degrees my fingers fall much better in place especially the first few frets. I find the traditional flamenco position still a bit awkward but every day I will try it for a little while till I am used to it. Coming back to the topic of this thread however, I still think that it doesn't matter whichever way one holds their guitar, with or without support. An exception would be when performing with a flamenco company. As I do not perform publicly it doesn't matter to me. Dan.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 22 2008 6:53:02)
quote: With the classical position the middle of my forearm rests on the front top edge of the guitar. Yeah, I know. And thats what I see as the biggest problem with the classical position. In a good flamenco position, being trad, cross leg or guitar on the lap, the forearm is "free" Thats what gives the power to the sound. You use the forearm a lot. In general, try to get your hand as close to the strings as possible. Most classicals bend their wrist. It works for classical, but a good standard flamenco position has the forearm and hand more or less straight when seen from above. It takes a while to learn a good position, so be patient.

FlamencoNZ -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 22 2008 11:07:01)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson In a good flamenco position, being trad, cross leg or guitar on the lap, the forearm is "free" Thats what gives the power to the sound. You use the forearm a lot. I see what you mean with the free forearm for the power strokes. Last night I thought I was making progress but how then do you keep the guitar in position if you can't use the forearm to hold it? You know what, tomorrow I will load a small video clip of myself playing using the traditional position for you to comment on if you can. Dan.

FlamencoNZ -> RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"? (Apr. 23 2008 10:23:22)
Anders, I actually won't bother posting a video clip because I persevered a bit more tonight and, low and behold, I find I am beginning to get the hang of holding the guitar in the traditional flamenco position. At long last! It seems to go a lot better. I can now hold the guitar in place with my upper right arm resting on top of the guitar and with a rubber anti-slip mat between my right leg and the guitar. Both my feet are placed flat on the floor with my thighs being horizontal. My right forearm is free to do whatever it likes. Thank you so much for the hints and tips. Where there is a will there is a way, especially if you keep an open mind. Regards, Dan.

Page: << < 1 [2] 3 > >>

Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET