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RE: Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"?   You are logged in as Guest
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rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to FlamencoNZ

quote:

It seems to go a lot better. I can now hold the guitar in place with my upper right arm resting on top of the guitar and with a rubber anti-slip mat between my right leg and the guitar. Both my feet are placed flat on the floor with my thighs being horizontal. My right forearm is free to do whatever it likes. Thank you so much for the hints and tips.


What happens when you want to play picado? As you go from the treble strings to the bass strings, if your right biceps muscle (i.e the "arm") remains flat over the side of the guitar (thus supporting the guitar between your right thigh and right biceps), what happens to your right wrist's angle? As you go from treble to bass, if your right biceps remains flat on the side of the guitar, you will have to bend your right wrist somewhat as you go towards the basses with picado so that you can maintain the same angle of attack onto the basses as onto the trebles. If you want to avoid having to bend your right wrist, you will have to raise your right shoulder a bit so your whole forearm moves up a bit and thus the wrist angle remains the same from trebles to basses. In doing so, the biceps no longer lies flat over the side of the guitar, and thus, the instrument will drop unless you:

1- Support it with your LEFT hand

or

2- Use your right FOREARM (not biceps) to support the guitar - in doing so, the guitar's sharp edge will dig into your right forearm, and if you have a shallow-passing ulnar nerve, or don't have a lot of fat on your right forearm, the guitar's edge will cut into the nerve and you will develop ulnar neuritis after a month or two of doing this.

About point number 2 above - Paco Pena is not as sturdily built as Rafael Cortes (who both use traditional position), and thus he had to use those devices you stick onto the guitar's edge to "smooth out" the edge and not allow it to cut into the nerve anymore. Rafa Cortes eats a lot of Jamon (as he told me), and is more heavily built, and thus can afford to do that (supporting the guitar with his right forearm when doing picado) as you can see in his recently posted Fandango with his hijo. He does fine with no nerve problems. I've recently bought one of those sleeves with padding that allows less pressure to form on the ulnar nerve - let's see if it will help eventually.

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2012 23:09:59
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

interesting stuff!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2012 3:01:24
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

Hi Rombsix-

Your point about the "traditional" position imposing a changing wrist angle as you go from treble to bass in picado is certainly valid. One of the revolutionary aspects of Paco's technique is his picado. Among the older generation, I am only aware of Sabicas having a picado which approached Paco's, but Paco's is superior.

Paco's solution to keeping the wrist in the same position is to raise his right upper arm clear off the guitar as he goes to the bass strings. It's quite noticeable. How he keeps the guitar from escaping completely is a mystery to me, but I haven't really tried to analyze it.

Paco seems never to rest his forearm against the upper edge of the guitar. It appears to remain parallel to the top, thus avoiding the ulnar nerve problem you mention.

My picado will never be on the level of either Paco's or Sabicas' no matter how I hold the guitar, so the slight change in wrist angle imposed by the "traditional" position isn't significant for me.

Trying to play the guitar well is a dangerous pursuit. It seems likely to me that there are a variety of positions that might work, each with its advantages and disadvantages. I think one of the most important things a teacher can do is to point out the signs of impending danger, and counsel the student on strategies to play safely.

Fortunately I've never injured myself playing the guitar. At my age I'm paying the price for motorcycle wrecks and rock climbing incidents that I thought were just things of the past when I was in my fifties and early sixties. If I had it to do over, I think I would take the same risks.

My take on it is that if you want to play like either Sabicas or Paco, you're going to have to dedicate your whole life to it, starting at an early age.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2012 17:42:28
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

My take on it is that if you want to play like either Sabicas or Paco, you're going to have to dedicate your whole life to it, starting at an early age.


Surely you jest, Richard! You mean that after studying flamenco guitar for only six years, and now at the age of 68 and an hour or two of daily practice, I will not reach the level of Sabicas or Paco? My dreams are dashed. I will settle for Nino Ricardo. (just kidding.)

Cheers,

Bill

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Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2012 18:13:25
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to BarkellWH

....in addition, I've always suspected that Sabicas and Paco were/are wired up a little differently from you and me.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2012 19:14:21
 
rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Paco's solution to keeping the wrist in the same position is to raise his right upper arm clear off the guitar as he goes to the bass strings. It's quite noticeable. How he keeps the guitar from escaping completely is a mystery to me, but I haven't really tried to analyze it.

Paco seems never to rest his forearm against the upper edge of the guitar. It appears to remain parallel to the top, thus avoiding the ulnar nerve problem you mention.


The right thigh and right part of the body help support it, but when he does picado, his right forearm is what keeps the guitar from falling towards the headstock side. When not doing picado, his arm (biceps) is supporting it.

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2012 1:17:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

The right thigh and right part of the body help support it, but when he does picado, his right forearm is what keeps the guitar from falling towards the headstock side. When not doing picado, his arm (biceps) is supporting it.

Cheers!


His wrist or forearm makes contact but it is not supporting the guitar totally, especially has he travels up or down. In trad position the left hand is involved somewhat. It is like juggling. With leg crossed it is balanced more so left hand is more free.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2012 21:58:06
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
In trad position the left hand is involved somewhat. It is like juggling. With leg crossed it is balanced more so left hand is more free.


...ummm, it depends. In fact, in the 'traditional' position the left hand can be totally free, and the higher frets can be quite accessible--despite what Paco says.

Ed Freeman, the Englishman who went to Spain in the '50s to become a flamenco, who taught in Dallas, Texas for many years, and who accurately transcribed many pieces by Ramon Montoya, Niño Ricardo, Sabicas, etc. taught the 'traditional' position. This was pre-Paco, and it was the position essentially everyone used.

Ed would have the student hold the guitar and leave the left hand at his side. Ed would grab the guitar neck and try to wrest the guitar away from the student. If the student couldn't hold onto the guitar, Ed would analyze the situation and recommend changes in the student's hold.

I experienced the same with a Triana gypsy who passed though San Antonio.

The traditional position is counter-intuitive to most beginners. There are lots of ways to do it wrong. But it can be done in a way that doesn't produce excess tension, doesn't press on the ulnar nerve, and leaves the left hand free.

I've seen Sabicas support the neck with the left hand in one particular situation. He liked to do a continuous rasgueado moving the right hand up and down the strings toward the soundhole, back toward the bridge, toward the soundhole, etc. In this case his right upper arm would lose contact with the guitar and his left hand would support the neck.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2012 14:31:01
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ricardo

Its really funny to read your own comments from 4 years ago....I'm disagreeing with my own point of view on occasions now.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2012 14:20:30
 
rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

Its really funny to read your own comments from 4 years ago....I'm disagreeing with my own point of view on occasions now.




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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2012 14:57:00
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Is using a guitar-support "un-flamenco"?


Oh man...3 pages..several years and this thread is still not closed..but the answer is so simple!!


The answer is:

HELL YES!!!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2012 22:01:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Pimientito

quote:

..or a nubile tatooed Hatian girl on a moonlit beach, a suckling roast pig on an open fire, a frothy jar of spiced mead in a smokey inn...


Even your opinion about this mark?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2012 22:05:53
 
ArtZumer

Posts: 67
Joined: Aug. 4 2010
From: Brisvagas

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

Thought I would share my opinion/story since I have gone through several of these positions.

When I began playing guitar (classical guitar) I used a footstool on the left leg - it was great especially for my right arm however when I would practice more I found that my pelvis would be become disaligned - this caused my back to kink slightly and give me bad pain in the lower back.

Then I began flamenco and went paco style - this was ok but after a month of intense practice I found that it gave probably the worst pain's I've ever had from guitar. my back and hips were feeling it a lot.

Anyway about a year ago I bought a guitar rest for my left leg from a classical luthier called Lance Litchfield who happened to live close by. Anyway I've found it has been a miricle and have not had any pains at all in any way. The only negitive is I find it a little harder to do Alzapua. Saying all that I usually switch to Paco style when playing with friends.

Anyway my conclusion from all this was to experiment to find what suits your body the best and try and keep your body in the most natural position possible considering the hours you may practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2012 1:25:53

FredSanford

Posts: 87
Joined: Sep. 13 2011
 

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to ArtZumer

Its cheating. If your foot doesn't fall asleep while you're playing its not puro.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2012 1:33:47
 
elroby

 

Posts: 142
Joined: Mar. 25 2007
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2012 4:15:59
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2012 5:42:48
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to elroby

quote:

If Chiculeo recorded that falsetta, you know, the one you like to play so much, and did it once using a guitar support and once without it, would you be able to tell the difference?


Its not that it negatively affects playing in any way. It´s just uncool. Thts my personal feeling about that. I played the chicuelo falsetita in that video coz somebody asked for chicuelo stuff a min before we recorded. I would have played other stuff otherwise.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2012 12:40:10
 
rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Doitsujin

Kris Barnett Adjustable Magnetic Guitar Support

http://www.stringsbymail.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_945_386&products_id=7761



http://www.barnettguitarsupport.com/

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2012 5:33:26
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to rombsix

Looks cool, Ramzi. Have you tried the Barnett guitar support?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2012 19:40:35
 
rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Looks cool, Ramzi. Have you tried the Barnett guitar support?


Nope. But I plan on getting a modified version of one of these:



Will keep y'all posted.



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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2012 20:03:11
 
CMND/CNTRL

 

Posts: 8
Joined: Oct. 22 2011
From: Segundo Barrio

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Doitsujin

[edited by Admin]

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2012 23:54:20
 
rombsix

Posts: 7847
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to CMND/CNTRL

Olé admin!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 21 2012 0:55:54
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Is using a guitar-support "... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


quote:

..or a nubile tatooed Hatian girl on a moonlit beach, a suckling roast pig on an open fire, a frothy jar of spiced mead in a smokey inn...


Even your opinion about this mark?


No...I still agree with all that

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Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2012 14:21:31
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