RE: El Tempul in detail

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Stu

Posts: 2552
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to mediocre)

Hey guys,
3 months late, I've finally decided to look at El Tempul. except I don't actually have the tab.

searched the site and found a few dead links to the tabs.
can someone help me out??

thanks in advance.

Stu

EDIT: No worries I found it

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 0:10:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Pacos way of doing it with i,i,a and golpes

I really don't think he does...
I think he uses m,i,i which is actually a very old fashioned bulerias rasgueado used by a lot of Jerez guitarists in films I've seen.
It's different because the fingers aren't flicked out, but both i and m operate as a pair and moved in the same single motion.
The result is a very fast and strong triplet.
I've heard it used in Fandangos de Huelva and I've seen Paco Peña use the same style in long rasgueado intros to Granainas and Tangos as well as Manuel Morao, and Niño Ricardo.
Moraito uses it too from time to time.

My dos pesetas anyway, (just to stir it.)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 10:33:12

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Can you post some links to clips of that Ron, I would love to see it done.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 10:37:43

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi Ron, I am familiar with the rasgueado you describe however you are forgetting that this piece calls for a golpe and I find it actually more difficult doing it with mii.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 11:44:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)

quote:

however you are forgetting that this piece calls for a golpe and I find it actually more difficult doing it with mii.

Rain,
Anytime you make an i down stroke you can make a golpe with a.
I'm not saying it's "easy", but IMO I wouldn't think back in 1969 Paco developed a "special" rasgueado for that one piece, but perfected a normally used one.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 22:08:01

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to guitarbuddha)

D,
I had a quick look on YouTube but the Peña pieces I was thinking about aren't there.
I watched the Ondazerez TV coverage of a couple of Fiestas a couple of years back and noticed it quite a lot in the 7,8,9,10 beats of Bulerias.
I've got a VHS tape showing Diego Amaya using it.
It's something I've never really practised much since I tend to use p,a,i for that bit.
If I find something I'll post it, but I don't have much time at the mo.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2008 22:21:55

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to mediocre)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mediocre

I can see we're a bunch of cheaters , then the only one who could make it was ricardo!!!

I feel better now!

Duende, in you youtube version you do it really well with aii, if you are not going to make the golpe it sounds perfect. I wouldn't change.

For me i could do it pmp but it a completely diferent feeling, i don't like it, i can play with this rasgueo much faster than the original song but i can' t put the accents in the notes i want. So i keep trying with iia without golpe because i've never heard about most of the rasgueos im reading here, i don't know how to start with them.

Actually, I am the only one we saw doing so far, but I did it properly VERY SLOW, well, not very slow, but under the proper tempo. In context I still can't do it, but in the vid you see me get the FIRST golpe of each group at tempo...so I am a cheater too. Actually I can do it at tempo, but after each gople I loose the steady even triplet, and hear a bit of a gallop in the rhythm. So I am still working to close the gap. I dont' think it s a big deal for some folks to make substitutes...but of course here I am doing the same, so it is easy for me to say that. In the end this is for fun and a learning experience, and at least TRYING to do it the right way is helping us all technique wise.

I am hoping Grisha comes along and does the whole piece perfect at the proper tempo!

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 3:08:38

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron I know but you're suggesting he starts with m not i, so I still don't understand how he does a golpe with m down followed by i down and i back up.
In all honesty I'm not having a huge problem with the iia, like every other technique it requires practice and developing the motor skills.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 8:10:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)

quote:

Ron I know but you're suggesting he starts with m not i

Absolutely NOT, Rain!
He starts with i, but it is an ordinary m,i,i rasgueado IMO!
A rasgueado (or falseta) can "start" wherever you want it to start.
Start on the i and continue the m,i,i rasgueado.
You will notice that you can only really do golpes on the i down, which fits perfectly into what Paco is playing golpe-wise.
This rasgueado sounds powerfully strange and weird IMO because it has a very strong up/down and not triplet feel to it.
Hence my suggestion that it is a heightened and very controlled version of an ordinary Jerez rasgueado.

This is only my thoughts and experimentation, not an absolute by any means.
But it's interesting stuff.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 8:44:25

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Oh I see I misunderstood for a second I thought you were saying he starts with m.
You know the funny thing is I hear it more as if hes counting it as 123456 rather than 123 123, and I'm learning it as such. And there is a difference between how you choose to count it, when i count it and feel it as 123456 it comes closer to Paco's sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 9:22:03

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)

quote:

You know the funny thing is I hear it more as if hes counting it as 123456

Yes, in twos..

1 2 3 4 5 6

Think in twos, not in triplets IMO.
Let the triplets happen, but don't think about them if you know what I mean.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 9:48:29

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Oh, right Ron, that is the one I use, but I alternate it with PaP to strengthen the bass melody. It is a long way from ready.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 10:10:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

You know the funny thing is I hear it more as if hes counting it as 123456

Yes, in twos..

1 2 3 4 5 6

Think in twos, not in triplets IMO.
Let the triplets happen, but don't think about them if you know what I mean.

cheers,

Ron

I dont' think he meant the counts of the compas Ron, rather he describes the phrasing of the rasguedo as sextuplets rather than triplets...hence the golpe every other round. Meaning i with golpe is 1, i up is 2, m or a is 3, i down is 4, i up is 5, 6 is a or m, then you start again with i golpe on the next group of 6.

I just want to add again the golpes are NOT every other round of 6, or in "twos". They change points in the phrase. 12,2,4,6...7....10,.... 1, (4 he misses I think or hits very light), and 6 he leaves open to prepare for the other rasgueado (pai). My version I hit 12, 7, 1, thats all I could get in at tempo, basically the starting points. My slow version I do what I believe is the intended technique.

About iim, it was one of my early suggestions, but after some work on it I ruled it out because the m finger gets a darker sound than the a finger because of the strings it targets. At least the way I do it. At first it seemed more efficient to get the a finger prepared to golpe, but my iia fairly quickly gained speed on my iim, and had a brighter sound like Paco's, so that is what I am sticking with. YOu could be right of course and I should work on the m finger to target more treble strings, but like I said the way I do the technique normally, I found myself favoring iia.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 11:54:02

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ricardo)

ricardo what do you have the tempo marked at per quarter note.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 12:15:34

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, are you saying i down, i up, then m down?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 12:33:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain

ricardo what do you have the tempo marked at per quarter note.

Sorry, I thought your reply to Ron was specifically about the rasgueado in question. When you said the way you hear "it". If you meant the ENTIRE PIECE by "it", then go with what Ron said orginally.

As to your question, Tempo of the original or what I do in my video? Also, what do you call a quarter note? I mean in my video, my foot tap to you is a quarter note or a half note? Just so you know, in my mind it is a quater note, but to most folks my foot is doing the half note.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2008 18:32:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

Ron, are you saying i down, i up, then m down?

Yes Mark...as Ricardo says...

quote:

Meaning i with golpe is 1, i up is 2, m or a is 3, i down is 4, i up is 5, 6 is a or m, then you start again with i golpe on the next group of 6.

Of course Ricardo is referring to 1 as the first beat of the rasgueado, NOT the compás.
So when it starts the first beat is on the 12th beat of the compás if that makes sense)

Also..

quote:

I just want to add again the golpes are NOT every other round of 6, or in "twos". They change points in the phrase. 12,2,4,6...7....10,.... 1, (4 he misses I think or hits very light), and 6 he leaves open to prepare for the other rasgueado (pai).

Yes, I hear the whole golpe phrasing as

12 1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12
1 2 3 4 5 6

(Although this is how he plays it in THIS recording. He probably has lots of variations to it according to how he's feeling, so don't get too hung up on this IMO.)

I've still got a long way to go to clean and speed it up.
Anyway, let's see how we're all at by December!

The big laugh is that the only other player I've heard play a similar thing is Tomatito, yet it is a ragueado that you could fit into any similarly paced Buleria and would sound great, so if in the future you ever hear anybody do it you'll immediately know they are a ForoFlamenco member...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2008 0:25:13

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ricardo)

Sorry, I thought your reply to Ron was specifically about the rasgueado in question. When you said the way you hear "it". If you meant the ENTIRE PIECE by "it", then go with what Ron said orginally.

It meaning the rasgueado section that we are speaking of.

Tempo meaning the beat of the compas cycle, that is 12-1-2-3 etc i have it at 300bpm and I practice it with my metronome at 150 for it does not go to 300. So yes that would mean that I'm practicing the Triplet rasqueado in sextuplets. Since the compas is a 12 beat cycle i see each beat as a quarter note if my metronome were set at 300 or 8Ths at 150.

If you carefully listen to Paco's phraseing of the triplet rasgueado, to my ears it sounds more like he's playing in sextuplets rather than triplets, at least to my ears.

A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2008 1:58:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rain

It meaning the rasgueado section that we are speaking of.

Tempo meaning the beat of the compas cycle, that is 12-1-2-3 etc i have it at 300bpm and I practice it with my metronome at 150 for it does not go to 300. So yes that would mean that I'm practicing the Triplet rasqueado in sextuplets. Since the compas is a 12 beat cycle i see each beat as a quarter note if my metronome were set at 300 or 8Ths at 150.

If you carefully listen to Paco's phraseing of the triplet rasgueado, to my ears it sounds more like he's playing in sextuplets rather than triplets, at least to my ears.

I am with you. Yep, 150 bpm, and yep they are LIKE sextuplets. Don't forget he STOPS each phrase on the strong beat, so only the very first group are phrased like on the beat sextuplets. After the first pause on count 6, the next groups of rasgueado actually get accented on the up beat (see Ron's bold golpe markings above). 7-9 (nine tuplet?), then 10-11, stop on 12. And again, 1-3, 4-5, stop on 6. The bass line movement in the chord/melody implies that 9tuplet is really an up beat triplet, attached to a 6tuplet group, which is not so strong accented group of 6 as before, because of the missing golpes. So the literal phrasing is like this:
(sextuplet)(sextuplet)(sextuplet)(stop),(triplet)(6tuplet)(stop),(triplet)(6tuplet)(stop) remate....

This is how I can "say" the phrase up to tempo with accents:
BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-Bum....BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum...
BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum....

So, since you have to get used to phrase both on the accented beats(12,2,4,6) AND sometimes the up beats (7,1), you might as well get used to the idea that the 6tuplets really are just two groups of triplets, and reserve your goples to just accent when you want/need to accent.

(Notation wise, there actually is a difference between beaming 6tuplets or 24th notes, and 16th-note-triplets. For 6 tuplets all 6 notes are beamed together. The triplets, 3 16ths with an 8th note beam to the other 3 16ths. This would be more appropriate for this rasgueado we discuss).

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2008 19:01:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-Bum....BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum...
BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum....

LOL!

I sort of hear it as..

Dija-ah-Bigity-Bigity-Bom, Dija-Bigity-Bigity-Bom, Dija-Bigity-Bigity-Bom.

I've worked out a real "cheat" that sounds sort of like you're doing it when played fast, but sounds totally crap when you slow it down.
Hey ...it's only about 4 seconds out of the whole thing!

It means I can't play the 2 golpe, only the 4th, because the m finger gets in the way (just now).

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2008 9:52:02