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RE: Norman Kliman
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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 RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Hmm. Like it or not, there actually exist people that can play in compas that are not from spain. I am not saying all things are equal, just that on a global internet forum, no need to constantly point out that Spanish people have a privileged position when it comes to learning flamenco; that is obvious.
What I am saying is "in compás" is a different concept in Spain, and it doesn't necessarily relate to numbers, and certainly not genetics. The sooner this is understood, the easier it is to move on to the Spanish concept, which in the end, is the one that works...for both Spaniards and non-Spaniards. The only privileged position a Spaniard has is in time: they don't need to spend years forgetting how to count, because they never learned that way in the first place.
I've been listening to the interesting collection of BxS Norman posted with guitarists adding half-compases. Since the newest one of the group is from 1945, a time when this cante was still germinating and wasn't even considered a separate form by most people, I'd say guitarists were looking for an elegant way to get past the singer's interjections and elongations. Somewhere along the way they discovered it sounded cool to play the cambio on 1-2-3, and that became an important characteristic of BxS (in those styles that rely on it).
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 16 2008 6:12:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to zata)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
What I am saying is "in compás" is a different concept in Spain, ....The only privileged position a Spaniard has is in time: they don't need to spend years forgetting how to count, because they never learned that way in the first place.
I know exactly what you are saying, I am not argueing what you MEAN. I am just making you aware of how it sounds. Like if you are NOT in Spain, you WON'T get the concept. That is not fair, and frankly not true. It is not true, the implication that all non spaniards learn compas by counting, and that no spanish flamencos learn to count. It is a gross generalization, even if there is SOME truth behind it.
Romerito, I am not saying you need to separate the art from it's culture, just that it is redunant to describe the specific things we are talking about by making a distinction between the "insider" and the "non". At no point were we discussing the accompanying methods of specifically non spaniards and how they must play more square or something. The only thing I personally tried to meantion was the distinction between "pro square box" approach to singing and playing, and the "home grown" version that is less structured. No implictions there of insiders vs outsider, all are insiders, whatever you might mean by it. And no indiction of race or nationality either.
For sure a foreignor could have been raised on flamenco, "home grown" style never the pro box way, no counting, no choreographed letras etc. For sure one can talk about the difference between the way non spaniards vs spaniards interpret things, but for the sake of this cante/accompaniment discussion, how about we save all that for a different arguement? What can the flamenco accompanist get away with, insider or not? If he is playing for a singer, he already IS an "insider". Unless you mean from a specific gitano family...yada yada, you get my point right?
Anyway, since I brought it up I will drop it now, no need to stray from the topic.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 16 2008 8:41:42
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I know exactly what you are saying, I am not argueing what you MEAN. I am just making you aware of how it sounds. Like if you are NOT in Spain, you WON'T get the concept. That is not fair, and frankly not true. It is not true, the implication that all non spaniards learn compas by counting, and that no spanish flamencos learn to count. It is a gross generalization, even if there is SOME truth behind it.
As JFK said, “life isn’t fair”. Like everyone else, I can only speak about my own personal experience. I’ve never met an outsider who did not begin the long journey into flamenco without counting to twelve. Endlessly and obsessively. Spaniards may, or may not learn that way, depending on the environment they grow up in and a variety of other factors. I just came from the peña Chacón where I went to see a singer, Ana de los Reyes, sister of Navajita Plateá, one of the most flamenco families in Jerez. I thought I was going to get some good down-home flamenco, but she sounded like a pop singer who’d learned some “songs” from tapes. Afterwards, I asked friends how she could possibly sound so vacuous. They laughed and told me “she was brought up in Córdoba!”. That explained it all. There’s no cante in Córdoba!
The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.
Epilogue: After the peña some friends came to my house for a nightcap. One of them was Monea, brother of the late Domingo Rubichi, nephew of Agujetas el Viejo. He’s not a performer in any sense of the word, but he sang some siguiriyas that made me feel like my skin was peeling off.
Life isn’t fair.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 16 2008 11:49:43
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
I think it has to do with the guitarist feeling the tempo a little faster than the singer, and they both realize it and try to touch bases. I've heard this happen a lot, in live performances and on recordings, and I wonder if some singers aren't doing it on purpose just because they learned it from one of those seminal recordings.
Norman, “touch bases” is an apt description of what is happening at every moment during accompanied cante, although in practice, it’s the guitarist chasing after the singer. Younger singers, those influenced by the Camarón generation, might make an effort to collaborate with the guitarist for the greater good, but most singers over 40 or so are only concerned about their own singing. I don’t think a lot of people realize that in the actual moment you are singing, it’s not possible to hear the guitar because the sound of your own voice fills your head, so the singer leads by default. A conscious decision is required to take a reading of the guitarist’s tempo and tones *in between* sung words and phrases, and most singers don’t bother.
“Singers doing it on purpose”…you’re assuming singers don’t have absolute control of tempo and compás. This is only true in rare cases, most notably the Diego del Gastor school in which the guitarist may impose tempos the singer has not signalled, something many singers don’t tolerate. Young guitarists, approximately since Vicente, also take the reins in this regard, which is why singers of a certain generation can only sing with certain guitarists, such as Carrión, Rebollar or Franco who understand singers’ sensibilities (or “drawbacks”, depending on your opinion of traditional singing).
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 16 2008 21:43:21
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srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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Norman: Found the Quiejo thing. Thanks. I'll order it up tomorrow. And thanks for the link to the Mairena clips. I'm up at 2:30 a.m. listening right now.
To everyone: I've really enjoyed following this thread from the sidelines. Much, or most, of it has gone over my head, but some of it has stuck, and all of it has been interesting. The temperature seems to be rising a bit here, so I hope it doesn't all fall apart. From my vantage point I see a number of very knowledgeable, passionate afficionados all reaching for the deepest possible understanding of this topic of discussion, and starting to step on each other's toes a little, maybe mis-hearing each other a little bit. I'm getting a lot from hearing all these different voices and perspectives, and I don't want to see this fount of information suddenly dry up because of some internet-miscommunication. I hope I'm not being too presumptuous in assuming that we're all trying to get to the same place here, if perhaps from different points of departure. So please, keep it going. We're listening. Think of the children (i.e. me)! We need to know about this stuff!
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Date Feb. 16 2008 21:52:32
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