RE: Norman Kliman (Full Version)

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zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 6:12:53)

quote:

Hmm. Like it or not, there actually exist people that can play in compas that are not from spain. I am not saying all things are equal, just that on a global internet forum, no need to constantly point out that Spanish people have a privileged position when it comes to learning flamenco; that is obvious.


What I am saying is "in compás" is a different concept in Spain, and it doesn't necessarily relate to numbers, and certainly not genetics. The sooner this is understood, the easier it is to move on to the Spanish concept, which in the end, is the one that works...for both Spaniards and non-Spaniards. The only privileged position a Spaniard has is in time: they don't need to spend years forgetting how to count, because they never learned that way in the first place.

I've been listening to the interesting collection of BxS Norman posted with guitarists adding half-compases. Since the newest one of the group is from 1945, a time when this cante was still germinating and wasn't even considered a separate form by most people, I'd say guitarists were looking for an elegant way to get past the singer's interjections and elongations. Somewhere along the way they discovered it sounded cool to play the cambio on 1-2-3, and that became an important characteristic of BxS (in those styles that rely on it).



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Ricardo -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 8:41:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

What I am saying is "in compás" is a different concept in Spain, ....The only privileged position a Spaniard has is in time: they don't need to spend years forgetting how to count, because they never learned that way in the first place.



I know exactly what you are saying, I am not argueing what you MEAN. I am just making you aware of how it sounds. Like if you are NOT in Spain, you WON'T get the concept. That is not fair, and frankly not true. It is not true, the implication that all non spaniards learn compas by counting, and that no spanish flamencos learn to count. It is a gross generalization, even if there is SOME truth behind it.

Romerito, I am not saying you need to separate the art from it's culture, just that it is redunant to describe the specific things we are talking about by making a distinction between the "insider" and the "non". At no point were we discussing the accompanying methods of specifically non spaniards and how they must play more square or something. The only thing I personally tried to meantion was the distinction between "pro square box" approach to singing and playing, and the "home grown" version that is less structured. No implictions there of insiders vs outsider, all are insiders, whatever you might mean by it. And no indiction of race or nationality either.

For sure a foreignor could have been raised on flamenco, "home grown" style never the pro box way, no counting, no choreographed letras etc. For sure one can talk about the difference between the way non spaniards vs spaniards interpret things, but for the sake of this cante/accompaniment discussion, how about we save all that for a different arguement? What can the flamenco accompanist get away with, insider or not? If he is playing for a singer, he already IS an "insider". Unless you mean from a specific gitano family...yada yada, you get my point right?

Anyway, since I brought it up I will drop it now, no need to stray from the topic.

Ricardo



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zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 11:49:43)

quote:

I know exactly what you are saying, I am not argueing what you MEAN. I am just making you aware of how it sounds. Like if you are NOT in Spain, you WON'T get the concept. That is not fair, and frankly not true. It is not true, the implication that all non spaniards learn compas by counting, and that no spanish flamencos learn to count. It is a gross generalization, even if there is SOME truth behind it.


As JFK said, “life isn’t fair”. Like everyone else, I can only speak about my own personal experience. I’ve never met an outsider who did not begin the long journey into flamenco without counting to twelve. Endlessly and obsessively. Spaniards may, or may not learn that way, depending on the environment they grow up in and a variety of other factors. I just came from the peña Chacón where I went to see a singer, Ana de los Reyes, sister of Navajita Plateá, one of the most flamenco families in Jerez. I thought I was going to get some good down-home flamenco, but she sounded like a pop singer who’d learned some “songs” from tapes. Afterwards, I asked friends how she could possibly sound so vacuous. They laughed and told me “she was brought up in Córdoba!”. That explained it all. There’s no cante in Córdoba!

The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.

Epilogue: After the peña some friends came to my house for a nightcap. One of them was Monea, brother of the late Domingo Rubichi, nephew of Agujetas el Viejo. He’s not a performer in any sense of the word, but he sang some siguiriyas that made me feel like my skin was peeling off.

Life isn’t fair.



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 12:04:59)

quote:

Can insider get away with things that an outsider can't?


It's the concept of "get away with" that's skewed. The idea that we analytical sorts know the *real* way to do flamenco, and if ignorant Spaniards manage to make something sound okay without conforming to our rules, they have "gotten away with" something.

Consider the following. You're at an informal dinner and dessert time comes. The hostess asks "who wants ice-cream?" Along with several others you anxiously shout "me!" The ice-cream arrives moments afterwards even though there is no possible justification for having used the object pronoun in that context.

That's how it is in flamenco.



Ricardo -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 20:33:02)

quote:

The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.

[&:]

I dropped it already. Just ignore the stuff I said before, my bad for bring it up.[8|]



NormanKliman -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 20:51:12)

Hey Romerito,

quote:

The first time through "la que quiero deci" is definitely out.


Ah, I thought you were talking about a falseta. Yeah, at that point, they drag it out. I think it has to do with the guitarist feeling the tempo a little faster than the singer, and they both realize it and try to touch bases. I've heard this happen a lot, in live performances and on recordings, and I wonder if some singers aren't doing it on purpose just because they learned it from one of those seminal recordings.



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 21:10:05)

quote:

quote:

The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.

REPLY
I dropped it already. Just ignore the stuff I said before, my bad for bring it up.


Sticking your head in the sand also works, but not for those people who are genuinely interested in the issue and might even be considering making a go of doing flamenco in Spain.

Forty years ago our beloved Don Pohren wrote that foreigners simply cannot do flamenco in any credible way, so just abandon the idea. At that time it may have been true, however times have changed and many outsiders have since "infiltrated" the ranks, but not without becoming immersed in the ambiente.



NormanKliman -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 21:13:41)

Hi everyone,

There's an interesting selection of Mairena's recordings available at the CAF website: http://www.centroandaluzdeflamenco.es/flamenco/

You have to go to "Producciones" on the left-hand side of the screen, then "Ediciones discográficas," then follow the links to Antonio Mairena. Some of the tracks are from his first recording, all bulerías and fandangos and not one of my favorites, but there are others with Melchor, Paco Aguilera, Manuel Morao (although it says "Paco Morao") and Paco de Lucía.

Thanks to Rafael for pointing this out to me!



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 21:43:21)

quote:

I think it has to do with the guitarist feeling the tempo a little faster than the singer, and they both realize it and try to touch bases. I've heard this happen a lot, in live performances and on recordings, and I wonder if some singers aren't doing it on purpose just because they learned it from one of those seminal recordings.


Norman, “touch bases” is an apt description of what is happening at every moment during accompanied cante, although in practice, it’s the guitarist chasing after the singer. Younger singers, those influenced by the Camarón generation, might make an effort to collaborate with the guitarist for the greater good, but most singers over 40 or so are only concerned about their own singing. I don’t think a lot of people realize that in the actual moment you are singing, it’s not possible to hear the guitar because the sound of your own voice fills your head, so the singer leads by default. A conscious decision is required to take a reading of the guitarist’s tempo and tones *in between* sung words and phrases, and most singers don’t bother.

“Singers doing it on purpose”…you’re assuming singers don’t have absolute control of tempo and compás. This is only true in rare cases, most notably the Diego del Gastor school in which the guitarist may impose tempos the singer has not signalled, something many singers don’t tolerate. Young guitarists, approximately since Vicente, also take the reins in this regard, which is why singers of a certain generation can only sing with certain guitarists, such as Carrión, Rebollar or Franco who understand singers’ sensibilities (or “drawbacks”, depending on your opinion of traditional singing).



srshea -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 21:52:32)

Norman: Found the Quiejo thing. Thanks. I'll order it up tomorrow. And thanks for the link to the Mairena clips. I'm up at 2:30 a.m. listening right now.

To everyone: I've really enjoyed following this thread from the sidelines. Much, or most, of it has gone over my head, but some of it has stuck, and all of it has been interesting. The temperature seems to be rising a bit here, so I hope it doesn't all fall apart. From my vantage point I see a number of very knowledgeable, passionate afficionados all reaching for the deepest possible understanding of this topic of discussion, and starting to step on each other's toes a little, maybe mis-hearing each other a little bit. I'm getting a lot from hearing all these different voices and perspectives, and I don't want to see this fount of information suddenly dry up because of some internet-miscommunication. I hope I'm not being too presumptuous in assuming that we're all trying to get to the same place here, if perhaps from different points of departure. So please, keep it going. We're listening. Think of the children (i.e. me)! We need to know about this stuff!



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 22:25:00)

quote:

The temperature seems to be rising a bit here, so I hope it doesn't all fall apart.


The singer's perspective tends to land like a bucket of cold water in the middle of a guitar-centric discussion, and I've seen people go ballistic on the guitar-teacher forum when confronted with angles they hadn't considered.

So I'll gracefully drop out before the bonfires get lit and send warm regards to all forum members [:)]



NormanKliman -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 22:29:33)

quote:

So I'll gracefully drop out...


Gracefully??? [:D]

Ten percent, Estela.



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 23:00:08)

quote:

Ten percent, Estela.


Wow, you sound seriously angry [:-].

I meant only to speak about cante, but if you took something as a personal attack, please accept my apologies, it was not intended. The contribution you've made with your webpage is one of the most important resources available today.



NormanKliman -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 23:13:53)

quote:

Wow, you sound seriously angry


No, not at all. Sorry if that hurt, but sometimes you make too many affirmations and don't take into account other people's opinions, which was exactly your assesment of this situation.

quote:

The contribution you've made with your webpage is one of the most important resources available today.


Thanks for saying that. You've got an awful lot of experience as an aficionada, and you sing well, too.

So let's get back to talking about cante!!![:)]



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 16 2008 23:28:48)

quote:

sometimes you make too many affirmations and don't take into account other people's opinions,


I make a big effort to scrupulously separate opinion from cold observation, and take care to preface opinions with "I think..." or something similar. When I don't soften the sentence in that way, you can be sure I'm talking about something I've observed first-hand on repeated occasions. At that point all that's left is to accept or reject my capacity to interpret what I've observed.

That probably sounds overly scientific, but it's the system I have to follow when writing reviews because artists come demanding explanations, and I feel obliged to provide them.

Generally speaking, it's constructive to specify what you disagree with, because I may have expressed something inadequately. It's funny though, I always understand myself perfectly [8D].



Florian -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 17 2008 3:18:53)

quote:

The day I see one single guitarist, singer or dancer from outside the ambiente doing something in flamenco that seems minimally authentic or worthwhile, then I will scratch my head and remember your words.


lol thank you for the encouraging words Zata [:D][:D] please dont forghet to remind me next time you are handing out encouragement and inspiration again.....dont wanna miss it [:)]



zata -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 17 2008 4:03:59)

quote:

lol thank you for the encouraging words Zata please dont forghet to remind me next time you are handing out encouragement and inspiration again.....dont wanna miss it


For fairy tales, consult Hans Christian Anderson, for self-esteem, see a shrink.

If you want to do flamenco, seek out the people who do it the way you like it, and soak it up. There may be short-cuts, but I haven't found any.



Florian -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 17 2008 4:09:03)

hehe wow !! thats a really "cool" , quic replie (kind of needed the drum roll and crash at the end though )...and what am I seeing you for again ? a spectators guide to made in Spain authentic flamenco ? [:)]

quote:

If you want to do flamenco, seek out the people who do it the way you like it, and soak it up. There may be short-cuts, but I haven't found any.



SO thats what we beeing doing wrong around here !!, noone tought of that until now..you SHOUld writte a helping book for us "101 tips for an outsider to sound authentic" [:D]

perhaps u can ended with some words of encouragement , you know, " I've never seen it but ..You can do it !"



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Rain -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 17 2008 5:52:57)

The pizza in Italy sucks!

So does M&M

Oh and Spaniards can't play jazz or the blues and have no understanding of Pop music whatsoever.

White boys can't jump and Black boys can't read.

Yeah uh huh and all the other nonsense and Yeeeeeeeeeeeeaaahhhhhhhhhh ok I think I'll go back to me guitar.



Florian -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 17 2008 6:00:39)

quote:

Spaniards have no understanding of Pop music whatsoever


that's not acctualy a generalisation ..its true [8|] and i will take it one step further..the Europeans (except UK) [:D] ...cmon dont act like you aint seen Euroivision .[;)] jk.



ROmerito this qulifies ...its is about singing [:)]

sorry, il let you guys get on ith your serious discussion, please continue, i will retract from this.



zata -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 17 2008 6:10:50)

quote:

Oh and Spaniards can't play jazz or the blues and have no understanding of Pop music whatsoever.

White boys can't jump and Black boys can't read.



Somebody's got a little racist obsession. How did we get from nurture to nature?



Florian -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 17 2008 6:13:38)

Estela, i am sure you are familliar with the concept of sarcasm, infact i think he feels the very oposite of how you think he feels [;)]

k. now i am out [8|]



Arash -> RE: Norman Kliman (Feb. 17 2008 6:19:39)

Give it up Flo.
Zata is right.
We non spaniards are destined to suck.....[:D]

p.s. i have to tell this to Jason McGuire....
He fooled me....he told me that he can play authentic flamenco [:D]



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Florian -> RE: Back to the Cante...Again (Feb. 17 2008 6:26:55)

quote:

Flo/Rain: If you have some insight to share other than an opinion about how you have acculturated and can play with a range of singers from Agujetas to Pitingo, share it...otherwise get the hell off the thread


how about **** you bro [:)] il get on and off whatever thread i want, excuse me for beeing a touch insulted by the remarks made on your thread and replieing.

but I will get off, let you suck up a litlle more, mibe they will accept you more [;)]



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zata -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 17 2008 6:31:22)

quote:

i think he feels the very oposite of how you think he feels


Anyone can do flamenco, and plenty of outsiders have done so, including not only Americans, Japanese and others, but non-Andalusian Spaniards who begin with the same disadvantage as foreigners. Thinking just of guitarists, Pascual de Lorca comes to mind...he's actually from Lorca, not Jerez!

Anyone who reads genetics into that must be suffering a severe inferiority complex, which is a far greater obstacle than one's place of birth.



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