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NormanKliman -> RE: Back to the Cante (Feb. 18 2008 0:14:23)
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Hi everybody,
I suggest we start a new thread in order to carry on with these discussions. I don't really know much about how this is supposed to work, and since Romerito started this thread, I don't know if it'd be rude of me to start a new one, so I'll just answer some questions that have been posed here on this thread. But I'd be happy to let this one go and start a new one called "Cante" or whatever and just talk about cante. In my opinion, it's best not to lay down the law. One of flamenco's greatest virtues is the collective nature of so many of its components. Flamenco's too big for any single person to understand it completely. It's like the old story about the blind men trying to describe an elephant. One of them grabs hold of a tusk, another touches the trunk, another grabs hold of the tail, etc., and they all describe the elephant differently. The best we can do is to try to have less of a hold on the elephant's butt. [:)] And if someone doesn't understand anything about flamenco, maybe they'll look at it in a way that nobody else ever thought of. That's why I think it's best to talk about "what's out there" instead of rules.
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the Solea Apola sometimes gets cited as having either been influenced by the polo or being
sung as a remate to the polo. It certainly sounds like it has been influenced somewhat by the
polo. It also is considered to be one of the melody sets under the umbrella of Solea de Triana.
What can you say about the Solea Apola Norman or anybody?
You've pretty much said it all, Romerito. There's a group of Triana soleás that are called apolás. I assume that the name comes from turning the word "polo" into the verb "apolar" (=to make something sound like a polo) and shortening the participle "apolada" to "apolá" (=made to sound like a polo).
Nowadays, you might hear these soleás as part of a series of Triana styles or as conclusions to polos and cañas, as heard in old recordings. They say that cañas and polos were far more popular in the 19th century than they are today, and maybe singers used to sing apolás as the endings to those cantes. In any case, early flamencologists contended that cañas and polos, along with serranas, were relics from the past that should be recovered, and certain texts from the period (liner notes, etc.) associate a singer's knowledge of these styles with his or her pureza, depth of knowledge, etc. But that seems to be the result of a romantic and academic view of flamenco held by writers, possibly resulting from the hype surrounding the 1922 Concurso in Granada, because many singers and aficionados have stated that those styles, along with the serrana, are too long-winded and monotonous. There are also literary references that state that some of the variations you hear in cañas and polos were designed to break up the inherent monotony of those cantes.
Of course, we don't know how people used to sing 150 years ago, but if cañas and polos used to be as tedious as they are today, it would make sense to me that apolás were used to end those cantes in a livelier manner, very similar to the way the siguiriya of María Borrico is used to end serranas.
Musically, most of the apolás seem to be just like other Triana soleás, but four styles (El Fillo 1, Silverio 1, Silverio 2 and Enrique Ortega) share sort of a common melody that might have a few points in common with cañas, polos and serranas. I haven't analyzed the matter thoroughly, but what I've heard amounts to just a few notes here and there that are vaguely similar.
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It is about what cultural significance the music has for the people who had a large part
in it and how to be "authentic."
If we're talking about music, all that should matter is being familiar with certain melodies. If we're talking about hanging out at the bar, all that should matter is that other people enjoy your company. It's a tricky subject because, in general, we're talking about native Spaniards' perception of us and, more specifically, about their reaction to our appropriation of part of their cultural identity. My advice is just do the best you can and don't worry about others.
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Do you think they are going to be PC or extra kind. Do you think that they are going to be
happy about someone from outside th culture earning money while they starve. There are a million
questions aside from just playing that affect playing in one way or another.
I may be misinterpreting you, but it's really not that big a deal. Spaniards are pretty laid-back people.
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Do you read notes. I have the first track and a half transcribed. Not the whole track,
just accompaniment and melody. Want to know what you think if you read notation. For a paper I am doing.
If you want to send it to me, I'll have a look at it, but writing cante in musical notation is no easy task, and verifying its accuracy can be even harder.
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any siguiryas developed by singers from lets say Almeria and that "mineing" area.
Hi Henrik. No, siguiriyas seem to come from Western Spain, which is on the other side of the peninsula. That doesn't mean, though, that singers from Eastern Spain don't add their own personal touches to siguiriyas. It seems that the influence of cantes from Eastern Spain can be found in other styles that are from neighboring areas, like some of the cantes abandolaos that are supposed to come from Córdoba. Norberto Torres wrote an interesting article (in Spanish) on the subject, and I think it's on the Triste y Azul website. Mairena wrote in Mundo y Formas that Levante styles are based on an approach that's completely different from the what flamenco singing used to be. Like a brother-in-law or something.[:)]
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there is little doubt that flamenco is less cut-and-dried that some people would like.
Hi Sean. Yeah, I agree entirely. Different things happen for all kinds of reasons. Typically, as humans, our understanding often involves simplifying a problem in order to make it fit a rule. By nature, art is usually too dynamic and heterogeneous for simplification. I'll venture a guess, though, as to Chocolate's erratic performance. As you said, that happened just before he died. I saw him in Madrid not long before that, and he kept forgetting the letras. I've heard similar stories about him from that same time period. I think he wasn't too lucid toward the end of his life.
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