Manuel Granados progression analysis

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

verasalero

Posts: 10
Joined: Dec. 1 2007

Manuel Granados progression analysis

I've been going through Manuel Granados' "Technical Studies for Flamenco Guitar", and as an example from which many arpeggiation possibilities are derived he offers a progression based on Em using 4-note chords [image scan at bottom of post]. I'm self-taught, and so my harmonic theory is scattershot, but I wanted to name the chords, and came up with the following:

Em D7 Em#5 F#dim7 Am Bm#5 F#7b5 B Fdim7 Em D7 Ddim7 C7 B7 Em

The bit that intrigued me the most was the Bm#5 -> F#7b5 -> B ...

I tried to explain the idea in a notepad window like this:
"Bm#5 is the 1st inversion of G; F#7b5 is the 2nd inversion of C7b5, which employs tritone substition (ie. CEGA#; 5th is G, chromatically altered to F# ... tritone b/w C & F#. Thus, CEF#A# = C7b5 ... 2nd inversion=F#A#CE) By voicing F#b5 as F#CEA#, the A# leads nicely into the B voiced as BD#F#B."

I had heard of tritone substitution before, but I've never really attempted to analyse a progression that employs it, so I'm curious as to whether I have this whole business right at all!

Many thanks are in order to so many members of this forum who have helped with my understanding of flamenco as I lurk about relatively dormantly =]

Cheers!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2008 7:55:52

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to verasalero)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2008 8:04:49

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to verasalero)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2008 8:23:28

verasalero

Posts: 10
Joined: Dec. 1 2007

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero)

Thanks romerito!

As tempted as I was to simply memorize the fingerings from the tab and get right on to practicing the arpeggio patterns, I feel that it's best to attempt to seek out harmonic patterns for technical exercises.

I'll never notate simple chords that use a third in the bass so oddly ever again =]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2008 6:12:10

verasalero

Posts: 10
Joined: Dec. 1 2007

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero)

Here's another page I'm working on and curious about certain chord naming conventions and theory =]

Compas 1: Am-5add9 / A/C (or C6-5) / Ddim -> G#dim7/E / Bdim7/E
Compas 2: Ddim / G#dim/E / Bdim / Am
Compas 3: F/A (or Am#5) / Am#5add9 / F/A (or Am#5) / G
Compas 4: Eb/G (or Gm#5) / Gm#5add9 / Eb/G (or Gm#5) / F
Compas 5: Dm/F / Dmadd9/F / Fb5add9 / Fb5 / E

I read that sixth chords are basically first inversion minor chords, so would it be better to notate the second chord of compas1 as A/C instead of C6-5?

Another point of confusion is this #5add9 situation after chords that I think ought to be notated as inversions ... It doesn't make sense to me to say Fadd9/A instead of Am#5add9, even when after F/A (instead of Am#5) =/

The final compas is especially odd looking when I attempt to name the chords, even though of course I've come across these fingerings many times already!

I feel that it's more difficult to name chords within progressions where the highest voice is being changed, as opposed to the bass ... Is it better to approach analysis of these situations by paying attention to the tonic and considering the higher voices as a separate melody (embellishment that doesn't demand new chord names)?

Whew! Thanks for reading this mess =]

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 6:14:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero) 1 votes

I personally feel it is arbitrary to try to PROPERLY name using theory terms, the chords used in flamenco. Alot of the extensions and dissonances occur, not for functional harmony purpose like in classical, pop, jazz, etc, but simply because of the special fingerings employed by the flamenco technique.

But after having said that, there still could be a "better name" for certain chords than others IN CONTEXT. So for solea here:

Am(9), Am/C, G#dim7/D, E7/D, Then Final is E7(b9).

Without going on, I can see your fundamental flaw with naming chords, is you don't take into account the scale/key signature that the notes of the chords derive from. If you start by spelling the chords properly, you will get better results at finding the proper name. What you are doing by simply spelling notes based on the lowest note in the voiceing and going up, is not right and making things WAY more complex than necessary. In the end, the true analysis of the above compas is simply, Am, two bars, then E7(b9), which is the tonic of solea. So iv-I. Pretty basic. Don't spend too much time trying to analyze the harmonic ideas used in flamenco in WESTERN theory terms. It simply boils down to NON WESTERN modality, or it is very simple V-I or type resolutions.

Ricardo

EDIT, just to clear up if you want to continue analyzing the solea above, remember all those Diminished7 chords that have notes G#BDAF, are really simply the extended voices of the TONIC CHORD of the mode, E spanish phrgygian. The author of the example I notice used the OLD terminology of "doric" which he translates to "dorian" FURTHUR confusing the issue since that term does not at all jive with the western concept of modern "church" modes. Sort of like analyzing a modern play, but by using Shakesperean English!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 7:31:40

verasalero

Posts: 10
Joined: Dec. 1 2007

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero)

This is a great help. I'll ease off of attempting to fit flamenco squarely into Western theoretical concepts =]

I read once more this post of yours that I recalled coming across when I first joined here, and although it appears a daunting task to fully comprehend, I'm gradually getting a feel for this idea of tension in relation to the tonic that doesn't operate on a strictly tonal basis. It's that feel that attracted me to flamenco's soleá sound in the first place that's so difficult to define in terms in which I've heard most music described.

I'll certainly keep this in mind when approaching Granados' formal studies =]

Thanks, Ricardo!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 8:32:09

DesertWanderer

Posts: 1
Joined: Jan. 29 2008

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero)

Hey there--I'm new here, but I'd like to add -to verasalero- if you are interested, Granados has actually created a whole working theory for flamenco. you can find the book here:

https://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/shop.php?&op_shop=show&id_prod=996&id_cat=

I've looked through it, it's interesting and complete. I think if you wqant to understand flamenco in a sort of cerebral academic sense this book is a must.

he also has a book on flamenco harmony here:

https://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/shop.php?&op_shop=show&id_prod=3613&id_cat=

here is a forward from his theory book:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/guitar/granados-teoria/teoria.htm

maybe this helps

saludos

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 10:11:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to verasalero)

quote:

ORIGINAL: verasalero

This is a great help. I'll ease off of attempting to fit flamenco squarely into Western theoretical concepts =]

I read once more this post of yours that I recalled coming across when I first joined here, and although it appears a daunting task to fully comprehend, I'm gradually getting a feel for this idea of tension in relation to the tonic that doesn't operate on a strictly tonal basis. It's that feel that attracted me to flamenco's soleá sound in the first place that's so difficult to define in terms in which I've heard most music described.

I'll certainly keep this in mind when approaching Granados' formal studies =]

Thanks, Ricardo!

Hey thanks for bringing up that link, I noticed and edited a mistake in my long boring post!

I had made a typo there talking about Augmented 6th chords, and described the move bIV-V, but it should have been bVI-V, hence "6th chords" duh!

The Granados books, I only have one of that series, and did not find it terribly interesting or indepth....at least with the stuff bouncing around in my head that I find interesting. And the Doric thing I remember now bothered me that he did not bother to relate to phrygian. I will review it again and give some feedback if you care or have more questions...

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 10:27:46

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to verasalero)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 11:19:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to Guest)

quote:

The dorico is being used by many people now. It has become the norm for explaining flamenco harmony.
Ricardo, read Manolo's book again and you will see why. I am with you. Phrygian seems much more natural to me.

OK, I read it again and got the explanation, thanks man. He was saying the Gregorian modes were not derived from the Greeks, but rather the names were simply used, and wrongly, based on some "numbered" order, which he does not really describe. I would say, the modes might have been derived, but the whole issue of ascending vs descending might have caused confusion. For example, Greek doric or "dorian" in english, has that tetra chord character of the half steps between the 3 and 4. For notes we know that means C-B or F-E, descending. If he went based on whole (w) vs half (h) steps, not the tetra chord, AND ignored the octave needed to make a tetra chord, the greek doric scale ascending, without the octave, is EFGABCD, or hwwwhw, but decending it is whwwwh. Dorian ASCENDING is whwwwh. So he could have confused phrygian descending for Dorian ascending, and assigned the name "dorian" to what he thought was an ascending scale.

That "wwh" being the key thing to the phrygian cadence from Greek doric, is also the last couple notes Ascending of gregorian dorian. Both beloved modes respectively, and now it appears share the same name, but a different sound and vibe.

About the other 2 modes described by Granados of the greeks, I see they are the only ones that have the same half step interval location in both tetra chords. But what about the other beautiful modes available???

My point is that in modern times, it is pointless to used the same term to describe two very different things, just because one might be more "historically" correct. The point of theory is to make some sort of application available and practical. Save the proper "doric" usage for music history class.

Ricardo
EDIT, oh you probably meant Manolo Sanlucar? I refer to MANUEL Granados book above sorry.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 12:04:58

verasalero

Posts: 10
Joined: Dec. 1 2007

RE: Manuel Granados progression analysis (in reply to DesertWanderer)

Thanks DesertWanderer! The theory book is apparently out of print, but the one concerning harmony is at the top of my tax-rebate to-buy list now =]

cheers!

Ricardo, the four volumes of formal studies are pretty much straightforward examples with no explanation (and apparently unreliable translations!). The book of technical studies is also lacking in-depth explanations of the techniques themselves, but by trying to get through the exercises anyway I feel like I've been able to recognize why I'm having difficulty, and a quick search here leads me to helpful advice -- and usually audio & close-up videos!

Romerito, it's true that the more I stare at the mess of notes I'm scrawling, patterns somehow begin to emerge that give me a sense of how flamenco is outside of western/jazz theory as well as how it can be approximated by way of western terminology. I feel that I'm refining my native musical language (decidedly Western) in order to derive from it a linguistic base to be used to relate to other forms of music. So I'm trying to learn flamenco as it was before modern jazz theory became heavily incorporated into it, by way of western theoretical ideas, then eventually I'll try to mix contemporary jazz ideas in =] It's like extracting watermelon seeds, planting them, and waiting for a grapefruit tree to grow!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2008 12:31:31