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Posts: 1596
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
"Guitar needs to be played"...
Hi everybody, what's your opinion about a guitar needing to be played to deploy it's full potential? My experience says this is true. But what could be a plausible scientific explanation?
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
I can imagine the sound vibrations passing through the wood eventualy cause the molecular structure of the timber to re-aligh to offer the least possible resistance. A bit like a rough stone in water eventually becoming smoth.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
Well... Some month ago I played a 40years old reyes. Its was never played really .. but it was a great sound.. I also owned a great guitar. A paco de lucia one. When I got it, the treble strings didnt sound very bright. They sounded a bit like plastic. I allways played this guitar one year long and the treble strings-sound became much brighter. Im shure it depends on playing this guitar.
Fazit: I think its important to play a guitar. Than it becomes better. I also think that you should allways put strings on the guitar. If its not sringed.. it wont be good for the guitar IMO.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
i think invariably the answer is yes.
you can see it on old violins cellos and basses. the ones that have been played alot and played well sort of... take care of the player.
its as if they've learned what sounds are right and how to make them. I can imagine that aftermany years of vibrating the wood, the natural resins etc would link up in such a way that a piece of wood being vibrated at certain frequencies would.
recently a friend of mine had the opportunity to play the Karr-Koussevitzky bass which has been played quite a bit and is very old. he performed koussevitzkys more notable bass solos in concert with it.
his remarks were "its as if it knows what to play". after so many years of talented musicians and constant playing, its no wonder!
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
The guitar I built does get better as I play it... that's all I know.
I went back to Canada for Xmas but left my guitar in Italy because I had too many luggages already (gifts)... when I used that little cheap Aria classical I had back there, I couldn't believe I started playing on this... it really sounded like plastic, I hated it. The first time I put strings on the guitar I built, it sounded a little better than the Aria but not that much. Now it's just day and night.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
I can imagine the sound vibrations passing through the wood eventualy cause the molecular structure of the timber to re-aligh to offer the least possible resistance. A bit like a rough stone in water eventually becoming smoth.
this is very interesting. i'd go with this one..
i always loved all that voodoo sh*t around guitar playing/composing/feeling it , but this one is really cool
Posts: 1596
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
Yup, I guess we all agree there's something to the "voodoo sh*t" (@deyo) about guitars.
@guitarbudda: I believe it's mercy rather than pity ...
@n85e: That's the stuff!! I haven't read the paper yet, but it's promising.
I read a post somewhere a couple of days ago about "twin" guitars and how they evolved over time. As soon as I've found the url again, I'll post it here.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
One of my relatives played violin professionally for a symphony for about 45 years. I recall him having a discussion about a violin he purchased—it was a Guarneri —and that it took a couple years of him playing it every day to really open up the tone. The wood was apparently “dead” sonically from lack of use. It was probably at least two hundred years old and the bow cost as much as an average house at the time. BTW he liked it more than any Stradivarius he had ever played.
I would assume the same goes for acoustic guitars especially if they have a finish such as French polish which doesn’t limit the flexibility of the wood. I’ve never noticed this phenomenon with acoustic guitars but all the ones I’ve played have had a thick, hard finish.
Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
The comparison of the Martins may not prove anything. The major part of the "opening up" process occurs in the years immediately after the guitar is built (I think.) In this case, they supposedly were both played early on. Norman
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"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales
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Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
Another thing I have noticed is about how hard you play the guitar. I think by doing gople's, the flamenco guitar gets affected even more than say just a classical guitar that you only pluck the strings. My friend had a cheap Cordoba, it sounded crappy at first. After POUNDING some hard rumba on it for a year, the thing had an amazing punchy tone and "sweet spot". I think if you hit on the soundboard, you "activate" it somehow, the vibrations really "open up" the guitar's tone. But for sure, no matter what science can say about it, it is "voodoo".
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
I think at best it might be a couple of glued joints opening-up a bit - or the player learns to get the most from it. Heaven forbid the reason is that you just get used to the sound so think it sounds better - especially if you spent a wad on it!
My guitar doesn't sound better to my ear after a few years of playing, but what I do miss is the sweet cypress smells from when it was new.
All of these reports of instruments sounding better with playing are highly anecdotal imho. It is the genes that count.
This playing myth rightly belongs with "voodoo science". It reminds me of cyclists that say there frame gets soft with age - sorry, material properties do not change. It is your brain getting soft
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to cathulu)
quote:
but what I do miss is the sweet cypress smells from when it was new.
Put some humidity in the case, a wet wash cloth or paper towel, then cover the sound hole with a polishing cloth. You will be surprised by the "smell".
About the brain getting soft...ah....no. It is real. The guitar changes, it is not about getting used to it. The wood, the material as you say, DOES change.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
I posteed this on a wood carving forum I belong too and got several interesting replies. One being that the age of wood, where it was grown is certainly critical. Woods from the Mediterrrean area, grown in hotter, dryer areas, grow harder and more durable. But there is this writing as well..
wood has very different mechanical properties along different axes. Its mechanical properties are determined entirely by its cell structure. Wood is made up of long, thin cells with walls composed of the polymers cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin. Cellulose, a carbohydrate that forms long straight chains, is the main structural component of wood. Cellulose chains usually form microfibrils, fibers consisting of groups of parallel chains held firmly together by hydrogen bonding. In wood, cellulose microfibrils lie parallel to one another in four layers, and spiral around the cell in its long direction, with different angles of spiraling in each layer. Lignin and hemicellulose, which form highly cross-linked structures, act as a “glue” that holds together the cellulose components and binds adjacent cells together. The longest dimension of each cell runs parallel to the growth of the tree trunk, in the longitudinal axis, and therefore wood has its greatest tensile strength in the longitudinal direction. As a result, wood plates must be elongated along the grain of the wood, in the direction of greatest tensile strength, in order to achieve the same types of resonant modes that are observed in an ideal square plate.
Many modern-day violin makers use visualizations of resonant modes to aid in tuning a violin’s front and back plates. During construction, modal patterns in a plate can be seen by covering the surface of the plate with a fine sand and inducing mechanical vibrations at various frequencies. As the plate resonates, the sand moves about, except at the nodes, which remain stationary. The sand collects at the nodes or is bounced away, creating much the same patterns as shown above.
Two particularly strong modes are the second and fifth harmonics of the plate, often referred to as the “X mode” and the “ring mode” for the shapes of their nodal patterns. These harmonics are the main components of a plate’s tap tone. Recently, a number of violin makers have recommended tuning each plate such that the ring mode sounds exactly an octave above the X mode, in order to mimic the efforts of early violin makers, who would have tuned the most prominent modes to exact musical intervals. While the theory is difficult to test, it seems highly plausible because tuning tap tones to musical intervals requires no specialized equipment and therefore could have been done by even the earliest violin makers. In addition, the idea parallels Renaissance ideals of mathematical perfection, which may well have guided the Italian violin makers of centuries past.
Lumber Redux: Another Look at Wood
Do violins actually improve with age? The acoustical properties of the wood used in their construction certainly change with the passage of years. Moisture in wood absorbs vibrational energy, converting it to heat energy by evaporation. Although the wood used in violins is already dry, minute changes in water content can have dramatic effects on violin acoustics: a 1 percent decrease in moisture content reduces damping by up to 3.5 percent. The long-term improvement of acoustical response depends mainly on the degradation of hemicellulose, the component of wood that adsorbs water most readily and degrades most dramatically over time. As hemicellulose degrades, the wood’s maximum water content decreases. Even over very short periods, the sound of a frequently played violin may noticeably improve as small amounts of water evaporate from the wood. __________________
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
thanks for that explanation, rickm. that was fascinating.
i had two cracks in the back of my blanca last winter in dry LA (i had just purchased it six months before) and took it to german vasquez rubio to get repaired. he told me that a guitar always sounds absolutely amazing right before it cracks. and it was true!
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to rickm)
Hello rickm,
I recently posted on a thread {tap tones} as follows:
"I'd like to put another theory forward for you builders to consider (I don't expect you all to agree - just to consider!): the sound of a guitar is characterised by the sum of the fundamental note and the harmonics that are produced as a consequence of the build of the guitar (and the players style - which cannot be controlled). Tunning the guitar to musical differences produces odd harmonics - the human ear would much prefer 2nd order harmonics (hence the love of the sound of the value amplifier for both musicians and hi-fi enthusiasts). This sound occurs in most guitars but only over a very narrow range - if in doubt get the spectrum analysers out and play around with the capo. Can any of you produce a guitar rich in 2nd order harmonics over the whole range of the guitar?"
In response the the last question towards our resident builders "Can any of you produce a guitar rich in 2nd order harmonics over the whole range of the guitar?" I received no comments...I assume the topic has either; not been broached before, cannot be achieved, or was not understood.
When you talk about the 2nd harmonic "x-mode", this is the first of the harmonic series that I am refering to. You suggest that this is understood amongst violin makers and not just a by-product of 'zen' or 'voodoo shyte' that is often refered to here.
I've tried similarish experiments to what you describe by fixing the edge of a soundboard in a vice and covering the top surface in talcum powder and inducing vibrations across frequencies of the audio spectrum (maybe white noise may be more appropriate?). I've tried lots of bracings including various mechanical comb filtering of the bracing without any real success. I was about to give up thinking that the sound of a valve amplifier cannot to equated to the response of a guitar...your input here has given me hope.
It appears that violin makers are well aware of some basics of the ear/brain response to sound that we are in ignorance of. I'd be most interested if you can elaborate and put into context the theories of the violin makers.
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
quote:
I can imagine the sound vibrations passing through the wood eventualy cause the molecular structure of the timber to re-aligh to offer the least possible resistance. A bit like a rough stone in water eventually becoming smoth.
Its an interesting theory but without evidence it means nothing. Does anyone know of any scientific studies on this?
However i'm pretty sure my guitar sounds different in different humidities, and there is evidence for this. We know that wood absorbs water in humid conditions and so becomes denser. This will affect the resonant frequency of any of the wooden parts of the instument, hence a different sound response in humid conditions.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to krichards)
quote:
ORIGINAL: krichards
We know that wood absorbs water in humid conditions and so becomes denser. This will affect the resonant frequency of any of the wooden parts of the instument, hence a different sound response in humid conditions.
There's little doubt that this is true. I think spruce gets muffled in high humidity and cedar opens up, just the opposite when humidity falls. Another effect of humidity is to cause the doming of the top rise or flatten. This raises and lowers the string height from the fingerboard thereby affecting the volume and action. That's why flamenco guitars get more buzzy in low humidity.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to jshelton5040)
This seems to be a question begging for more theory. All tonewood is the home of sound fairies. In a new guitar the fairies are asleep. When you first play a guitar some of the best groups of fairies can make wonderful sounds together immediately. In other guitars, the fairies are very sleepy and you just get confusing sound and not much of it. In the worst cases, the fairies are very angry at being woken up and make ugly sounds – some are louder than others and some don’t make much sound at all because they are so fed up. Over time some fairies get better at producing sound, but sadly the sleepy and angry ones often don’t improve much in spite of what the dealer told you about the guitar ‘opening up after a few months’. When fairies get very old they don’t perform as well as they did in their greatest years, but the good news is that life expectancy is much greater these days. I am nervous about making claims from my own subjective feelings. I couldn’t really claim with any certainty that any of my guitars have improved over time (even the ones that have been played regularly and hard). I am more certain however that guitars have good and bad days and my favourite changes accordingly. It could be humidity I suppose - but much more likely to be one or more fairies in a bad mood! Rob
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to edguerin)
Hi Ed Theories are always needing to be developed further and I am pleased to accept accept your modification. When I finally publish in the Journal of Musical Instrument Acoustics I will of course acknowledge your contribution. Rob
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to RobJe)
quote:
ORIGINAL: RobJe
This seems to be a question begging for more theory.
Not a theory. If you don't believe it put finish on one side of a piece of wood and watch which way it bends as humidity changes. Since the unfinished side absorbs moisture faster a rise in humidity causes the finished side to become convex. It will flatten or become concave as the humidity falls. Look at Per's hygrometer in another thread, same principle.
Why spruce and cedar react differently to humidity is simply an observed phenomenon. I don't have any theory as to the reason but it may have something to do with porosity, mass, cell structure, etc.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
This raises and lowers the string height from the fingerboard thereby affecting the volume and action. That's why flamenco guitars get more buzzy in low humidity.
I'm experiencing this right now on one of my guitars. At first, it was baffling me as to what was going on.
RE: "Guitar needs to be played&... (in reply to jshelton5040)
Sorry John - I was trying to be lighthearted. I did point out that as a player I think I can detect changes in the way a guitar plays according to the weather and your explanation and citation of related, observable physical phenomena is convincing - of course my theory says there is probably nothing more grumpy than a damp fairy!
I am more sceptical about the considerable improvements some people report as a result of playing the guitar over time. To my great disappointment, all the mediocre (not necessarily cheap!) guitars I have had have remained stubbornly mediocre with the same limitations as they had from the beginning. I am happy to accept the idea of small improvements - perhaps some people need to convince themselves (and wives, husbands or partners) that the big pile of money they spent on the guitar was worth it in the end? The problem is we are now in the realms of psychoacoustics. There is plenty of research on violins (some based on starting with a so-called matched pair of instruments) but as far as I know the scientifically respectable ones have been inconclusive.
The other thing that interests me is flamenco guitars that are supposed to die of old age - played out. I know that some of the old lightly built didn't make it into old age, but just folded in half. I recently acquired a 1965 Sobrinros de Esteso 'media luna' blanca - heavily played judging by the wear on the frets and fingerboard - but far from dead and an absolute joy to play. The top seems as stiff as some of the more modern guitars and the action has remained very low. A 1961 Juan Alverez has not done so well in terms of sound - it has a much more floppy top and there are now some other physical signs that suggest deterioration.