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RE: What about a Sevilliana?
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Kate)
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quote:
Florian if you read the esflamenco page on Sevillanos it says
"(De Sevilla). Canción folklórica procedente de la seguidilla manchega que se ha ido aflamencando. Nace para acompañar al baile que se interpreta en pareja en series de cuatro sevillanas. Es el baile andaluz que más se ha popularizado y, hoy en día, se bailan incluso en las discotecas. Antes se bailaba en los patios o casas de vecinos, también llamados corrales, y siempre se han bailado en las romerías y ferias de Andalucía. "
I am aware that its folk , however my page talks in english and right above it in big letters it reads "Flamenco Forms"
its not the forreigners that are missunderstanding, is Spanish that are misscomunicating the point.
the term "forreigners" suggests that this people are from another country another land, many can only go by what its writtten about it.
Personally i never really loved the folk influenced palos, always prefered the heavyer ones Solea, Solea por Bulerias, Buleria etc.
however you cannot call yourself a flamenco guitarist unless you can play, sevillanas, fandangos de huelva, malaguena etc.
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Date Dec. 9 2007 1:36:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
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Sevillanas, as mentioned, not flamenco, but EVERY flamenco guitarist knows it. Same with rumba. As you get more hardcore and JONDO about flamenco tastes, you end up at the center which is just Solea and siguiriya. The movie "Sevillanas" as mentioned should make it clear. Many folks do Sevillanas and NO OTHER FLAMENCO form. Hope that makes sense. Like mentioned, there are bands that play ONLY blues, but every jazz players knows the blues too.
AT romerito about fandangos. Rito y Geografia makes it pretty clear. They draw a line from Huelva out across andalucia. First you had the folky rhythm, even religious processional in nature, that gets more "personalized" by individual singers. Fandangos Personales is the PROPER term. At some point, those free rhythm interps by some personality got termed "grande" and it stuck. Not sure who or when, but it is just like saying "my fandango style is great and special", compaired with the folksy kind. Perhaps they should have said "Flamenco Fandango" to differentiate, but as you say, what ever label gets used, it becomes understood what is going on by those that know about it.For me, just "Fandangos" is good enough, coupled with the PERSON singing it. Paco Toronjo vs, Caracol, vs Porrina, etc. Just "fandango" makes it clear what I am in for.
As the "fandangos personales" spread out, (according to Rito), in other regions, they picked up the other names, Malagueña, Granaina, Minera, Taranto, Taranto, Fandango minero, levantica, etc, etc, pesonal, based on fandango from huelva, but now focused on a location. And sure, in some cases, it was just a "name" for the fandango the singer made up.
Going back to Sevillanas/Rumba NOT being flamenco vs Fandangos. Well, you have people in Huelva that do ONLY fandangos, and other areas too, but no other flamenco forms again. So there you have the reason it is "ify". But Fandangos Personales ARE very flamenco, and you won't find people singing Taranto or Granaina that are not flamencos, typically.
Hope that makes some sense.
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Date Dec. 11 2007 4:46:59
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Yes, Ricardo, that does make sense, thank you!
Now that we're onto the many flavours of fandangos, I'd like to ask something else about them.
In my limited listening experience, I have come to associate Fandangos de Huelva with a continuous driving rhythm, as distinct from every other type of fandango that stops and starts all the way through (this may not be the correct terminology, but I think you'll know what I mean).
Now I get the impression that maybe Fandangos de Huelva used to fluctuate a bit more but perhaps evolved this constant tempo, but I really don't know. And is the constant tempo one of the main characteristics of Fandangos de Huelva, or is that my misunderstanding?
Can you (Ricardo) or any other experts (or residents of Huelva, perhaps  ) cast some light on this ?
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Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date Dec. 11 2007 5:31:40
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Estevan)
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quote:
Now I get the impression that maybe Fandangos de Huelva used to fluctuate a bit more but perhaps evolved this constant tempo, but I really don't know. And is the constant tempo one of the main characteristics of Fandangos de Huelva, or is that my misunderstanding?
Can you (Ricardo) or any other experts (or residents of Huelva, perhaps ) cast some light on this ?
Opposite. But it depends what you mean by "de Huelva" since that is very general in terms of singing, but specific interms of guitar. All the fandangos are from Huelva (unless personalized by someone outside), so in Huelva they use specific terms, like "Fandangos de Alosno", etc. Fandanguillo can mean different things too. But I believe that first there was a simple 3 beat compas, moving along with the procession (religious), then things started getting stretched until it became totally free and personalized. The guitar intros of and stuff of fandango "grande" or "personales" are a fleeting reminder of the strict compas that it evolved from. IMO.
@Romerito. Just giving you the reference since you asked. In Rito, they don't use the term "fandango grande", and Mairena is in that movie alot. Since you asked I thought that THAT reference would help clear it up for you.
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 11 2007 6:41:05
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Thanks Ricardo.
quote:
But it depends what you mean by "de Huelva" since that is very general in terms of singing, but specific interms of guitar.
Well ok, in terms of guitar, then (since we've dealt with song).
It occurred to me later that fandangos (of all sorts) vs. "fandangos de huelva" specified as such, seem like song vs. dance. That's to say, whenever I hear (or attempt to play  ) a guitar piece called Fandango de Huelva, it has a continuous tempo and therefore sounds like a dance, which the songs generally don't, because the verse sounds quite libre, and then the guitar plays in compas the standard E, A-, (G), F, E sequence in between.
But if, as you say, all fandangos come from Huelva (while a great many have become naturalized citizens of other areas) then is this label 'fandango de Huelva' only used outside of Huelva to refer to the bailable-sounding intsrumental version, or what?
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Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date Dec. 11 2007 8:10:18
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Estevan)
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quote:
But if, as you say, all fandangos come from Huelva (while a great many have become naturalized citizens of other areas) then is this label 'fandango de Huelva' only used outside of Huelva to refer to the bailable-sounding intsrumental version, or what?
Sort of. Or rather, it can just be the designation for fandangos from that region IN GENERAL (not just instrumental, but singing too). For example, In Rito y Geografia, the 20 min program called "Fandangos de Huelva", each style sung has its own name, Fandangos de Alosno, de Santa Barbara, etc, etc, but it is ok to call the whole series "F de Huelva". And yeah, all those styles have more of a steady rhythm, keeping with the folksy tradition they derive from. So it is the GUITAR keeping that beat for the singers for sure, so again you can generalize that in terms of guitar, F de Huelva will have a steady beat.
quote:
but I think many aficianados as well as flamencos consider rumba completely flamenco and in no way related to the type of catagory sevillanas is in. I do understand that some hard core types would not conisder it flamenco, but they also would exclude some other forms that are commonly accepted as flamenco.
Sorry, but yes I am serious. Rumberos are NOT NECESSARILY flamencos. Manzanita is not flamenco because he does rumba. It is because he also has done solea, bulerias etc. Gypsy Kings are NOT flamenco singers. Parrita is great, but I am not so quick to call him a flamenco singer. I hoped it would be clear Mark, my point that you will find people only playing rumba, sevillanas, or even Fandango, that are NOT flamencos ESPECIALLY by their own standards. When a flamenco artists DOES one of those styles, sure you can say it is "flamenco". So it is all about WHO the interpreter is. Ottmar Leibert's bulerias... flamenco or not? In the end it is all about taste again. Just because you are spanish, and gypsy, and sing, does not mean you are a flamenco.
quote:
You read Spanish?
Read Mairena's book.
According to him, Danceable Fandangos came first. Then Levante area (Almeria, Cartegena, etc) adopted the cante and did their own thing with it.
Malaguenas, Taranta, Minera etc are therefore offshoots of Fandangos.
Tarantos too. WHAT? Tarantos? Yes, Tarantos follows the scheme of Taranta which came from the Fandangos.
Verdiales and Jabers too. All offshoots of Fandangos.
OK, not getting huffy puffy, just trying to help with your question that was NOT getting answered it seemed.
quote:
I am just saying there are tons of resources and not all agree.
Not preaching to the choir, rather throwing out info for people interested in more than one opinion.
Dude, that is all EXACTLY what I just said was indicated by Rito. Same exact opinion. No arguement. If you have all the answers and resources already, why start up the discussion? 
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 11 2007 17:14:03
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: When Kate's away, the mice will ... (in reply to Guest)
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There's so much to keep track of, I'm going to need smelling salt, but no I'm not going to be able to get it.......I only know what I want to hear when I hear it, and I only know what I like to play when I play it. It is a matter of taste, and that is the whole point of this. 'You hate folk music influences in your flamenco for some reason, Sevillianas aren't going to do it for you. It's like Classical influences and Classical players......you are either open or closed about the matter upon pre cognition. Maybe it's a matter for discussion, maybe it's a matter for being on this side or that, but hey, if I like it there is no stopping me from liking it because I don't care.......I'm not a purist or a martyr for the sake of the flamenco, and I can do what I want!
Gary
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Date Dec. 11 2007 18:41:17
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