RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Full Version)

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val -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 9 2007 1:02:35)

quote:

i dont want to learn folk music

Now, imagine you're in Spain, you're sitting outside your house with your guitar and there's a street party going on (they happen all the time). Or maybe you've got a few locals round at your house. Your neighbours come along and say "Play some Sevillanas" because they want to sing or dance. You say, "Sorry, I can only play fancy PdL falsettas" (which, of course, being the Spanish man in the street they're not that interested in).
How pathetic would that be?
Get practising AND learn to dance it.
Val



Florian -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 9 2007 1:36:55)

quote:

Florian if you read the esflamenco page on Sevillanos it says
"(De Sevilla). Canción folklórica procedente de la seguidilla manchega que se ha ido aflamencando. Nace para acompañar al baile que se interpreta en pareja en series de cuatro sevillanas. Es el baile andaluz que más se ha popularizado y, hoy en día, se bailan incluso en las discotecas. Antes se bailaba en los patios o casas de vecinos, también llamados corrales, y siempre se han bailado en las romerías y ferias de Andalucía. "


I am aware that its folk , however my page talks in english and right above it in big letters it reads "Flamenco Forms"

its not the forreigners that are missunderstanding, is Spanish that are misscomunicating the point.

the term "forreigners" suggests that this people are from another country another land, many can only go by what its writtten about it.

Personally i never really loved the folk influenced palos, always prefered the heavyer ones Solea, Solea por Bulerias, Buleria etc.

however you cannot call yourself a flamenco guitarist unless you can play, sevillanas, fandangos de huelva, malaguena etc.



HemeolaMan -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 9 2007 1:43:03)

they just want to keep us in the dark

if we ever found out what they were really saying they'd no longer have an edge and they couldn't mock us for being stupid foreigners [:)][:)][:D][:D][;)][;)][;)][:D][:)][:)][;)][:)][:D][;)][8D][8D][;)][:D][:D][;)][8|][8|][8|][8|][8|][&o][;)][:D][:)][:D][;)][:)][:)][:)][:D][:D][;)][;)][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][;)][;)][;)][:D][:)][:D][;)][:@][:@][:@][&:][:(][:'(][:)][:D][;)][:D][:D][:)][:)][;)][;)]



Kate -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 9 2007 11:25:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
I am aware that its folk , however my page talks in english and right above it in big letters it reads "Flamenco Forms"

its not the forreigners that are missunderstanding, is Spanish that are misscomunicating the point.


Agreed, the esflamenco web shop should be punished for misinformation [:D]

Kate



Kate -> [Deleted] (Dec. 9 2007 11:26:32)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 9 2007 11:34:06



Florian -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 9 2007 18:22:22)

quote:

Agreed, the esflamenco web shop should be punished for misinformation


Nah, thats too harsh, mibe just shut down for a litlle while and be forced to pay some sort of fine to all the people they might have missinformed.



Ricardo -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 4:46:59)

Sevillanas, as mentioned, not flamenco, but EVERY flamenco guitarist knows it. Same with rumba. As you get more hardcore and JONDO about flamenco tastes, you end up at the center which is just Solea and siguiriya. The movie "Sevillanas" as mentioned should make it clear. Many folks do Sevillanas and NO OTHER FLAMENCO form. Hope that makes sense. Like mentioned, there are bands that play ONLY blues, but every jazz players knows the blues too.

AT romerito about fandangos. Rito y Geografia makes it pretty clear. They draw a line from Huelva out across andalucia. First you had the folky rhythm, even religious processional in nature, that gets more "personalized" by individual singers. Fandangos Personales is the PROPER term. At some point, those free rhythm interps by some personality got termed "grande" and it stuck. Not sure who or when, but it is just like saying "my fandango style is great and special", compaired with the folksy kind. Perhaps they should have said "Flamenco Fandango" to differentiate, but as you say, what ever label gets used, it becomes understood what is going on by those that know about it.For me, just "Fandangos" is good enough, coupled with the PERSON singing it. Paco Toronjo vs, Caracol, vs Porrina, etc. Just "fandango" makes it clear what I am in for.

As the "fandangos personales" spread out, (according to Rito), in other regions, they picked up the other names, Malagueña, Granaina, Minera, Taranto, Taranto, Fandango minero, levantica, etc, etc, pesonal, based on fandango from huelva, but now focused on a location. And sure, in some cases, it was just a "name" for the fandango the singer made up.

Going back to Sevillanas/Rumba NOT being flamenco vs Fandangos. Well, you have people in Huelva that do ONLY fandangos, and other areas too, but no other flamenco forms again. So there you have the reason it is "ify". But Fandangos Personales ARE very flamenco, and you won't find people singing Taranto or Granaina that are not flamencos, typically.

Hope that makes some sense.



Estevan -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 5:31:40)

Yes, Ricardo, that does make sense, thank you!

Now that we're onto the many flavours of fandangos, I'd like to ask something else about them.

In my limited listening experience, I have come to associate Fandangos de Huelva with a continuous driving rhythm, as distinct from every other type of fandango that stops and starts all the way through (this may not be the correct terminology, but I think you'll know what I mean).

Now I get the impression that maybe Fandangos de Huelva used to fluctuate a bit more but perhaps evolved this constant tempo, but I really don't know. And is the constant tempo one of the main characteristics of Fandangos de Huelva, or is that my misunderstanding?

Can you (Ricardo) or any other experts (or residents of Huelva, perhaps [;)] ) cast some light on this ?



Arash -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 5:40:38)

@Zorro and Val,

Actually i was a little bit ironic in my last sentence.
I mean if someone like Jason is giving Lessons in Sevillanas, then this must be something worth to learn and that Sevillanas stuff which he is teaching is very flamenco ;-)



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Ricardo -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 6:41:05)

quote:

Now I get the impression that maybe Fandangos de Huelva used to fluctuate a bit more but perhaps evolved this constant tempo, but I really don't know. And is the constant tempo one of the main characteristics of Fandangos de Huelva, or is that my misunderstanding?

Can you (Ricardo) or any other experts (or residents of Huelva, perhaps ) cast some light on this ?


Opposite. But it depends what you mean by "de Huelva" since that is very general in terms of singing, but specific interms of guitar. All the fandangos are from Huelva (unless personalized by someone outside), so in Huelva they use specific terms, like "Fandangos de Alosno", etc. Fandanguillo can mean different things too. But I believe that first there was a simple 3 beat compas, moving along with the procession (religious), then things started getting stretched until it became totally free and personalized. The guitar intros of and stuff of fandango "grande" or "personales" are a fleeting reminder of the strict compas that it evolved from. IMO.

@Romerito. Just giving you the reference since you asked. In Rito, they don't use the term "fandango grande", and Mairena is in that movie alot. Since you asked I thought that THAT reference would help clear it up for you.

Ricardo



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 7:04:52)

quote:

or residents of Huelva, perhaps


As far as I know, I´m the only resident of Huelva on this forum, but it doesn´t mean I know more about fandangos[:D]

As far as I remember from my university Flamenco classes, Fandangos de Huelva are first socalled fandangos aflamencados. derivated from the folk fandangos, which as Estella said where a popular form all over Spain and in 3 count beat. The FdH are more complex in their rythmical construction than other fandangos. Listen to the fandangos abandolados (spell?) from the Malaga, Cordoba region ( Fosforito and PdL great source). They are much more folksy than the Huelva ones, yet called flamenco.

Back to Sevillanas. Sevillanas can be the worst. When they are being beated down at some roemeria or fiesta. 7 or more horrible guitars out of tune being violated and someone screaming his/her throat out. They are played a lot here because of the Romeria del Rocio, which is the biggest romeria in Spain. I get sick of it. But when you listen to a great flamenco singer, then its as good as any "real" flamenco palo. (I recommend the Sevillanas by Manuel Soto Sordera and Paco Cepero on the album Arte flamenco)



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Estevan -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 8:10:18)

Thanks Ricardo.

quote:

But it depends what you mean by "de Huelva" since that is very general in terms of singing, but specific interms of guitar.


Well ok, in terms of guitar, then (since we've dealt with song).

It occurred to me later that fandangos (of all sorts) vs. "fandangos de huelva" specified as such, seem like song vs. dance. That's to say, whenever I hear (or attempt to play [&:] ) a guitar piece called Fandango de Huelva, it has a continuous tempo and therefore sounds like a dance, which the songs generally don't, because the verse sounds quite libre, and then the guitar plays in compas the standard E, A-, (G), F, E sequence in between.

But if, as you say, all fandangos come from Huelva (while a great many have become naturalized citizens of other areas) then is this label 'fandango de Huelva' only used outside of Huelva to refer to the bailable-sounding intsrumental version, or what?



Estevan -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 8:19:54)

Thanks for the tip, Anders.

quote:

As far as I know, I´m the only resident of Huelva on this forum, but it doesn´t mean I know more about fandangos


Yes, you're the man with the long-term responsibility to solve all the mysteries of fandangos for us! [;)]



Then you'll get your reward:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Mark2 -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 9:08:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Sevillanas, as mentioned, not flamenco, but EVERY flamenco guitarist knows it. Same with rumba. As you get more hardcore and JONDO about flamenco tastes, you end up at the center which is just Solea and siguiriya.


Your not serious about rumba not being flamenco? I'm sure you know many Spanish gitanos do almost nothing but bulerias, tangos, and rumba. Manzanita not flamenco? And the line between tango and rumba has become very blurry. I'm sure you wouldn't regulate tangos to that status. I know what you mean about the hard core sig and solea, but I think many aficianados as well as flamencos consider rumba completely flamenco and in no way related to the type of catagory sevillanas is in. I do understand that some hard core types would not conisder it flamenco, but they also would exclude some other forms that are commonly accepted as flamenco.



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Ricardo -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 17:14:03)

quote:

But if, as you say, all fandangos come from Huelva (while a great many have become naturalized citizens of other areas) then is this label 'fandango de Huelva' only used outside of Huelva to refer to the bailable-sounding intsrumental version, or what?


Sort of. Or rather, it can just be the designation for fandangos from that region IN GENERAL (not just instrumental, but singing too). For example, In Rito y Geografia, the 20 min program called "Fandangos de Huelva", each style sung has its own name, Fandangos de Alosno, de Santa Barbara, etc, etc, but it is ok to call the whole series "F de Huelva". And yeah, all those styles have more of a steady rhythm, keeping with the folksy tradition they derive from. So it is the GUITAR keeping that beat for the singers for sure, so again you can generalize that in terms of guitar, F de Huelva will have a steady beat.

quote:

but I think many aficianados as well as flamencos consider rumba completely flamenco and in no way related to the type of catagory sevillanas is in. I do understand that some hard core types would not conisder it flamenco, but they also would exclude some other forms that are commonly accepted as flamenco.


Sorry, but yes I am serious. Rumberos are NOT NECESSARILY flamencos. Manzanita is not flamenco because he does rumba. It is because he also has done solea, bulerias etc. Gypsy Kings are NOT flamenco singers. Parrita is great, but I am not so quick to call him a flamenco singer. I hoped it would be clear Mark, my point that you will find people only playing rumba, sevillanas, or even Fandango, that are NOT flamencos ESPECIALLY by their own standards. When a flamenco artists DOES one of those styles, sure you can say it is "flamenco". So it is all about WHO the interpreter is. Ottmar Leibert's bulerias... flamenco or not? In the end it is all about taste again. Just because you are spanish, and gypsy, and sing, does not mean you are a flamenco.

quote:

You read Spanish?
Read Mairena's book.
According to him, Danceable Fandangos came first. Then Levante area (Almeria, Cartegena, etc) adopted the cante and did their own thing with it.
Malaguenas, Taranta, Minera etc are therefore offshoots of Fandangos.
Tarantos too. WHAT? Tarantos? Yes, Tarantos follows the scheme of Taranta which came from the Fandangos.
Verdiales and Jabers too. All offshoots of Fandangos.


OK, not getting huffy puffy, just trying to help with your question that was NOT getting answered it seemed.
quote:

I am just saying there are tons of resources and not all agree.
Not preaching to the choir, rather throwing out info for people interested in more than one opinion.

[&:] Dude, that is all EXACTLY what I just said was indicated by Rito. Same exact opinion. No arguement. If you have all the answers and resources already, why start up the discussion? [8|]

Ricardo



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Ricardo -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 18:40:15)

quote:

In fact, I am pointing out that what Mairena says and what is in Rito isn't 100% analogous.


How is that exactly? And even though I think the two ideas being presented are the same, if they WERE different, so what? The reason I brought it up was because of your question to Estella, sort of jumping on the terminology thing again, and Pohren's use too. I thought that the question was genuine and that the opinion of Rito would shed some light. But now I read again it seems a bit rehtorical. So did you actually not want a response? Or just wanted Estela to come clean with the "put grande to bed" thing? Then just forget all my blab. I feel like I am giving help where none was needed if you get my drift.[&:]



gato -> RE: When Kate's away, the mice will play... (Dec. 11 2007 18:41:17)

There's so much to keep track of, I'm going to need smelling salt, but no I'm not going to be able to get it.......I only know what I want to hear when I hear it, and I only know what I like to play when I play it. It is a matter of taste, and that is the whole point of this. 'You hate folk music influences in your flamenco for some reason, Sevillianas aren't going to do it for you. It's like Classical influences and Classical players......you are either open or closed about the matter upon pre cognition. Maybe it's a matter for discussion, maybe it's a matter for being on this side or that, but hey, if I like it there is no stopping me from liking it because I don't care.......I'm not a purist or a martyr for the sake of the flamenco, and I can do what I want!

Gary



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 18:51:26)

quote:

Funny thing is, no matter how much scholarship is done, there is never enough to prove some of these theories definitively.


Of course not. Academical studying always leaves more questions than answers.[:D]

Seriously, the reason is that fandangos do NOT come from Huelva but is a very old folk tradition from all over Spain. Everything which has its roots or some of its roots in something folksy is difficult to study because it goes way back and because it was not written down.
There are other rythmical Fandangos than those from Huelva. La Campiña Codobesa y Malagueña is full of Fandangos considered to be flamenco. There´s a chapter in Rito del cante. I think its called from Ronda to somewhere else, where they talk about fandangos abandolados. They have a stronger 3 feeling than those from Huelva and are more in family with Verdiales, which normally is NOT considered flamenco but folk music.
Its normally considered that Huelva is the starting place for flamenco fandangos, but I´m not to sure its correct. The abandolados have their own feeling and sound very original to me. as I said Fosforito is a great interpreter of those fandangos, and With PDL on the guitar, it rocks (in 3 [8D])



Anders Eliasson -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 18:54:12)

quote:

Then you'll get your reward:


Thanks Estevan. Looking forward to it. Nothing like Pripps. I was in IKEA in Sevilla the other day and had a Spendrups Julbryg. jummy



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andresito -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 11 2007 22:55:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I was in IKEA in Sevilla the other day

You can take the boy out of Ikea but you can't take the Ikea out of the boy [:D]



gato -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 12 2007 2:01:48)

As for quoting texts on the foro, it's great to have all of that information, but if you can't work it into the 'big picture' it tends to be a lot of trivia that makes no difference to a lot of people. A lot of trivia gets thrown around here, and perhaps it's better to log off and pick up the guitar and play because after all it's what you do with your guitar that matters, no matter your level of education in flamencology. I have to admit I envy the people with all of the information, but in the same respect, texts are for the scolars and the art of the hypocrat...

Gary



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Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 12 2007 3:43:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

More questions shall arise.[:D]


OK, still says the same thing, only now my neck hurts from reading sideways![8D]



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