RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 3:53:50)

quote:

No need to refer to pre 1900, the fandango era begins and ends squarely within modern times, while many forms of the fandango family go much further back and are even mentioned in written accounts. And then there's Padre Soler's "fandango" from the 1700's.


That makes no sense, unless you meant "fandangos naturales", which is fine. To not go on and on about it, I will just stick with this statement and leave it at that:
quote:

The first fandangos are believed to have been abandolao forms derived from Moorish music,

Only point I was making all along, first there was compas, then there was free style. The free style fandangos evolved from the song form that had a beat at first.

quote:

If you read the original Spanish letter, no one called Manuel Martín an "idiot".

yeah I know I was just poking some fun. The real words were "racist/faciast" I believe. Since you seem to be defending him I will REALLY leave this one alone, or this could get ugly quite quick![&:]

quote:

we don't have many threads about cante and I wish we did.


Great, as long as we talk about what we LIKE and not who we think "does not know how to sing flamenco...".[8|]

Any singer knows that Estrella can SING or whoever else gets bad critic. Whether or not you like it is something else. Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance.[;)][8|]

That being said, some aficionados sing BETTER than some pros at certain styles. I think it is good that a singer focus on something rather than sing everything just to show knowleadge. But that is just my opinion as a fan.

quote:

This is a guitar forum. If there are half a dozen people here who understand cante sufficiently to understand what Martin Martin is saying, it would surprise me.

Not goin there...[8|]



Ailsa -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 3:57:49)

quote:

some aficionados sing BETTER than some pros at certain styles. I think it is good that a singer focus on something rather than sing everything just to show knowleadge. But that is just my opinion as a fan.


Well I guess that's just the same for everyone - you're always going to find some styles come more naturally and some need more work - that's certainly the case for dance styles. No reason why it shouldn't be the same for pros.

Yeah about my reported comment about Estrella - I wasn't meaning to be critical, just repeating what someone had said to me. Flamenco or not I like her. We went to see her show in London last Feb and it was wonderful. But that was a birthday present for my husband - he REALLY likes her. [:D][:D]



Kate -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 4:08:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Try Los Panchos[:D]


I had to google them, and found loads more bolero but mostly Latin American gruops. Maybe I should have been more specific and asked if any flamenco guitarists had recorded a bolero.

Kate



Matic -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 4:57:05)

quote:

Maybe I should have been more specific and asked if any flamenco guitarists had recorded a bolero.


Vicente Amigo has recorded 2:
Bolero de Vicente
Bolero a Marcos

Tomatito:
Aire de tango

Also, Carlos Montoya has a track 'Bolero Malorquin' that could be a bolero but it sounds way different than those of Vicente and Tomate. I don't know really... never payed attention to boleros. There may be different types of it.



Kate -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 6:59:11)

Thanks Matic, we've not got any Vicente recordings, but think we have the Tomatito one.

Cheers
Kate



zata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 8:06:18)

quote:

Any one know of any recorded Boleros.


Watch out for the word "bolero", it has several meanings. In Spanish dance, it's 'escuela bolera', a kind of semiclassical dance that was popular throughout Europe at a certain time, and made its way into nearly Spanish dance companies in the first two thirds of the twentieth century.

But in flamenco you also hear bolero songs, especially of Carlos Gardel or Antonio Machín, set to hard-driving bulerías, most often by Bambino, Fernanda or Bernarda de Utrera. If anyone hasn't heard how Bernarda turns the syrupy song "Ten Cuidao" into gut-wrenching flamenco, try find it and hear it soon.



zata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 27 2007 8:12:25)

quote:

Since you seem to be defending him I will REALLY leave this one alone, or this could get ugly quite quick!


I don't defend Manuel Martín. As a critic, not to mention a human being brought up in the US, I defend his right to free speech, and to not be brow-beaten and publicly humiliated by artists who feel they have not been praised highly enough. I've received plenty of threats and insults as a result of mildly negative reviews of artists who thought they were slightly better than perfect. People who are paid to give their opinion, have the obligation to do so.



andresito -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 28 2007 13:00:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata
People who are paid to give their opinion, have the obligation to do so.


Original: Ricardo
'Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance. [;)]'



Kate -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 29 2007 2:46:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: andresito
'Critics of singing should just sing then, and show everyone how it is done. Same for guitar and dance. [;)]'


Ah yes and if you are going to be an orchestra/classical music critic you have to play every single instrument in the world [:@]

Actually Zata can sing, dance as well as play guitar so I guess she qualifies.

Kate



Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 29 2007 3:27:58)

quote:

Ah yes and if you are going to be an orchestra/classical music critic you have to play every single instrument in the world


I would not be a good critic for orchestral music. I can say I like it or not. A paid critic should IMO have experience conducting, and playing some of the instruments that are used in orchestra. For example, violin or viola or cello, or a wind instrument like flute or clarinete or oboe, or Percussion. I don't mean a drummer for a rock band, but someone with experience playing auxiliary percussion for concert bands or symphonies. Someone who only plays piano, guitar, or just sings, or just LISTENS to music, would not make a good critic of orchestral music IMO.

And I don't mean they took some classes in college, but actually have experience. OK that is just my opinion. Likewise a guitarist with experience accomp. pro flamenco singers would make a better critic of singing than say a flamencologist that writes books, but can barely do palmas. Hope you know what I mean.



Kate -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 29 2007 4:16:28)

Hi Ricardo,

A critic is essentially a journalist, and one does not expect a war correspondant to also be a soldier. Theatre critics are very rarely actors, and would you trust an actor to review a film. If flamencos were left to review themselves everything they would all be falling over themselves with praise and would keep the bitching for backstage.

I do see what you are saying but just because some-one plays guitar does not mean that they can write ( I know quite a few flamencos that cant).

I did not read the original review that sparked the protest letter so cant comment on what Morente said or why he said it, but many feel it was a bit undignified. Its a shame that Martín's regular flamenco review for El Mundo is not published online so we can all see his apparantly very tough style of reviewing. We also dont know that he cant sing, dance or play guitar. I bet he does a bit.

As Sean and Estela have said Martín is very respected, he has been called 'el mejor crítico de flamenco de España', “el crítico más experto de este tiempo” and Felix Grande said of his writing "un nuevo estilo ha nacido en el periodismo".

He recieved numerous awards for his contribution to flamenco
la Mención Especial del Premio de Periodismo Ricardo Molina, de Córdoba (1986),
el I Premio Nacional de Periodismo ‘Antonio Mairena’ (1987),
Premio Nacional de Periodismo ‘Ciudad de La Unión’ (1987), Premio a la Mayor Cobertura de Espectáculos Flamencos (1999),
Premio Nacional de Flamencología en su modalidad de ‘Crítica Periodística’ (1999),
único concedido hasta el momento en la historia del flamenco,
Premio Nacional de Ensayo Flamenco Niño Medina (2001)
Premio de Investigación y Crítica de la Bienal Málaga en Flamenco 2006.

With all that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is talking about.

Kate



andresito -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Dec. 29 2007 10:17:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kate
He recieved numerous awards for his contribution to flamenco

All the awards are for journalism/writing, so one could say that his contribution has been to journalism or criticism as much as to flamenco.

Original:Kate - We also dont know that he cant sing, dance or play guitar. I bet he does a bit.] Which would make him an aficionado of flamenco and an expert in journalism, wouldn't you agree?

P.S. When I quoted Ricardo the context was about Martin, not Estela [Original:Kate - Actually Zata can sing, dance as well as play guitar so I guess she qualifies. ]

Sorry, I'm not trying cause fights here, just expressing my opinion [;)] But if people can say "Those who can, do; Those who can't, teach" then I would also say "Those who can't teach, criticise" [:)]



zata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Jan. 1 2008 14:37:17)

quote:

With all that I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he is talking about.


I can't remember his saying anything stupid, but he can be very tough, bordering on destructive...it probably sells newspapers, because he's been a very successful critic for many years.



zata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Jan. 1 2008 14:48:22)

quote:

"Those who can't teach, criticise"


The job title "critic" has an unfortunate connotation. In actual fact, most of what I, and most "critics" write, is at least 80% positive. You feel a responsibility to people who want to know whether they should spend their money to see something.

Most performing artists would not be able to analyze what another artist does, but they also know things a non-practicing critic could never imagine. For example critics who don't play guitar sometimes talk about the cejilla being way down the neck, forcing the singer to sing "high", or blame the guitarist for not "catching the chords" when a singer begins in a different tone from the guitar.



andresito -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Jan. 5 2008 19:53:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata
The job title "critic" has an unfortunate connotation. In actual fact, most of what I, and most "critics" write, is at least 80% positive. You feel a responsibility to people who want to know whether they should spend their money to see something.


Yes, this is true of course. The word 'critic' always makes me think of the sketch from Mel Brooks 'History of the world Part 1' when the caveman draws a buffalo on the cave wall and the narrator says "The stone age witnessed the birth of the world's first artist" and the artist is so pleased with himself until another caveman comes up looking serious, strokes his chin and then urinates on the wall, and the narrator adds "... and the birth of the world's first art critic" [:D]



Ailsa -> RE: Cante recommendations please? (Jan. 24 2008 5:11:24)

A friend has just lent me a box set called El Cante Flamenco. It's an anthology with all sorts of people on it - loads of famous names. It's in three parts, Origenes Cantes Basicos, Edad de Oro, and La Opera Flamenca.

I'm going to listen to it this weekend and I'm pretty excited about it. Not sure if that's a bit sad, but that's how I feel!! [:D][:D]



Manitas de Lata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 23 2024 16:56:32)




Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 24 2024 15:11:01)

A fun read through, thanks for you inevitable necro post. As to certain points I made on the previous pages, I went down the rabbit hole of research over the last 3 years regarding flamencology and origins of the fandango/abandolao forms. In summary, Sevillana first appears as a variant of Seguidilla, the folk dance still done in La Mancha. Search “Seguidilla Manchega” for example, and the similarity to the regional Sevillana becomes obvious. However the Ocón score of 1860s captures in print a famous “Seguidilla Sevillana” which has the characteristic off beat chord changes that is employed also by fandangos (and in the same score collection we see the fandango for guitar and voice, por medio). We also see Malagueñas and other familiar forms. Ocón did not see a reason to lump Sevillana in with the Flamenco forms at the end of the book, so the distinction is at least that old (he admits that the songs collected go back at least to the turn of the century meaning 1800). Before this time the earliest formal structure of the copla is ca 1800 Maximo Lopez, very Padre soler/scarlatti in style, yet “corrected” in the sense of the copla…ie, to my eyes it suggests the copla was miss interpreted by the earlier “Fandangos” composers. They did not seem to understand the formal structure but instead hint at it in their own pieces (what we might call “fakemenco” these days).

In my personal research I conclude that Mairena was actually on the right path, and more modern scholarship that claims to refute his opinions and findings to be in error (sadly the majority). In Leblon a quote was used from Manuel Martin (I assume the same researcher as the discussed critic of Morente’s daughter that drew heat from the artists), that was so darn misleading regarding the “Spanish gypsy soldiers in Flanders answer to the flamenco word question”, I have to say it even made me angry. No, there were no Spanish gypsy soldiers fighting in Flanders, ever. Maybe a Montoya in the late 1500s…but a huge conflation of timeline and events resulted in a very erroneous claim that Gypsy soldiers returning from Flanders are the “flamencos” related to cante dynasties. False.

About fandango and abandolao: my personal research (based on subjective interpretation of musical evidence and historical events) shows Fandango and “cante mineros” (as distinct but similar song form vessels for texts that fit) being created together in the following manner. First there was this “cante minero” type melody that gives rise to the abandolao/Malagueña type forms that have melodies using flat notes. This is due to the melody being based on the Renaissance mode 7/8 or G Mixolydian. Since mutliple texts were created/used for this formal structure, a few months later a gentleman was asked to repurpose one text to its own melody and form….since the structure is based on the text, the new melody using mode 6 (hypo Lydian or C major), followed very close to the same formalized structure as the previous song with the glaring difference that one melody used flat notes and the other uses natural. While cadential points line up the same, melodies are distinct. Technically, it means yes the Malagueña is “older” than the fandango by less then a year (if I am correct in my interpretation that is and it is not all coincidence). But the date of origin for both is 500 years ago. If I told you what the texts were then you would know what I believe to be the general source of most flamenco palos. When I get around to it I plan to publish my findings somehow. But agreeing with Mairena is problematic, such that modern flamencology would be hard pressed to accept my conclusions.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 24 2024 15:41:15)

thanks for the masterclass Ricardo , get it done , i would purchase your "paper" for sure.

This song is labeled Sevilhana but didnt sound to me like one... , but im pretty ignorant

regarding gipsies in that era its odd to me... , if we talk about Sefardits or new christians (ex muslims converted or ex jews sefardits converted) and non converted to christians i would believe it



Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 25 2024 16:49:38)

quote:

This song is labeled Sevilhana but didnt sound to me like one... , but im pretty ignorant


It is about the singing and song form structure. The guitarist is giving the chords in a relaxed way not strumming. Pretty much “song form” is the thing that needs to be understood with flamenco, and it is the singing, Cante Chico or jondo, that drives it in all cases. Rhythm guitar might be based on the way a traditional song was accompanied, however, by itself it is just a “treatment” underneath the melody.

quote:

regarding gipsies in that era its odd to me... , if we talk about Sefardits or new christians (ex muslims converted or ex jews sefardits converted) and non converted to christians i would believe it


in my research I learned that the gypsies would come from “out of town” for the corpus Christie festivals in Catholic Spain (Christian festivals of course), and perform song and dance. In one particular case, and I am talking more than 500 years ago now, there was literal racial mixing between one of the lovely young dancers and a particular young nobleman from the north area of spain. The romance did not stop there as said gentleman came to high ranks and promoted his half gypsy son all the way to the top levels. At the end of his life said noble married yet another gypsy woman, and the picture painted that there might have been an amicable cultural exchange going on, at the time the origin forms of what becomes the “palos” of flamenco, found their way into the hearts and minds of these collective groups.

There has been some tracing of the activities in that region (north spain) that migrate down to Sevilla/Triana and Andalucia in general, mid 16th cent.. From my perspective, this unique mixing of noblity and gypsy community that was from “out of town” yet stayed in the area, that had been going on already, might be the lineage to what we call the “cradle” of the cante, meaning the survival of these ancient song forms by gypsy dynasties in the region of the Guadalquivir/golden triangle geographically. This is backed up by the list of noble surnames these gypsy dynasties still carry, and in theory could be traced that far back via church baptism records (noble padrino protector benefactor or mentor or even lover could pass the name to the gitano babies). Let me just say that the activities were quite “progressive” for the time, and caught the attention of authorities up north, hence a move out of the area. When the gaze of these authorities turned the eyes down to Sevilla and saw similar activity, the movement goes underground.

As for the Levante, I have a totally different scenario that explains that pretty well. It is likely that the chocolate and peanut butter fusion between the cradle and the levante is the work of the bullfighter community (gitanos connected to the cante that were involved with the Fiesta National and traveled all around these regions in the 1800s), who recognized the musical repertoire of both areas as related.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 25 2024 17:06:34)

i had sometime ago modern/contemp spanish history (culture and society) classes with a Spanish felow. I can ask him some stuff if you want to , just tell me what you want to know (he lectures other spanish stuff)

my understanding of older history doesnt include gipsies , im talking in some other classes taken and personal research , the gipsies never come around in history.
as i said , this area was a mix of europeans , arabics , muslims , sefardits (portugal and spanish jews) , new christians (converted muslims) and thats it.
even the well integrated sefardits and jews , muslims etc were kick out from "here".
Gipsies apear only in modern/contemp history if.... we research for it..

Which century or centuries are you talkin?



Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 25 2024 17:10:33)

I am not going to argue facts with you. I have done the research already. Maybe you missed my edit but 16th century. Racial mixing already happening in 1490s. Kitarist had showed us documents regarding the gypsy immigration into Spain around this time. To say they don’t appear in history means your historical research has not been looking into it. I was on a different path when I stumbled on this info, which I feel relates to music.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 25 2024 18:04:57)

yes you re right , i dont have the facts , its not a matter of right or wrong , that information isnt given (like others as well) , you have to research , and my research wasnt around gipsies , although it should come across.... and it didnt , thats strange for me just that.

regarding contemp history , they are only a small mention when dictator Franco promoted national pride and tooked flamenco/spanish guitar as an another example of national identity (stole it...if you wish) and almost kill it . After that he promoted the exit of the gipsies from the main citties of Spain , Sevilla the evidence... they were force to move to outside of Sevilla to other places , some were new places built for them (like the nazis builded guettos) , some returned to the tent and horse wagon lifestyle..., very harsh times without work . This information i came across in my studies in contemp spanish history.
oh i almost forgot , their christianity was due to aculturation , has you know they re were pagan (and still are , they have their pagan rituals and belives), they adopted the religion when they stoped to be nomads and mingle with the spanish culture and lifestyle , not sure if only christians or catholics , i would say catholics in andalucia , they worship a lot of saints...., some i know that arent...they do no worship saints and go to Christian churches like you have a lot of them in the US. Its strange the religion and their pagan stuff
If i can recall , these convertion to religion is contemp and not that old.
regarding the mixing , normally old mixing was forced (rapping) and or paid... in general (theres allways exceptions of true love or many loves lol ) , contemp mixing more paid and true love.

i would love to see that info that you say , do you know how can i find it ? i dont need contemp , only very old stuff, its kind of odd due to Spanish inquisition .



Manitas de Lata -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 26 2024 11:33:35)

found some researches about , going to check later



Ricardo -> RE: What about a Sevilliana? (Aug. 26 2024 16:56:07)

about their spirituality, please read two books by George Borrow, The Zincali and the Bible in Spain. Both books are crucial to Spain history and Flamencology IMO.

The date of the above historical observations are mid to late 1830s. They corroborate with several other sources regarding gypsies and their customs and music, still in argument about its nature as being flamenco proper (I say it absolutely was flamenco proper that was observed). Also this time frame is important in my own research as to the much older likely origin events.

As to other sources I will tell you in the private messages what to look at.



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