Scandalous Poll

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Scandalous Poll

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[Poll]

Scandalous Poll

Yes, they're great!

44% (8)

No, I hate them! I would rather listen to Ottmar!

22% (4)

I like some songs

33% (6)

I like Tonino

0% (0)

Total Votes : 18

(last vote on : Jul. 21 2013 6:41:21)

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

Scandalous Poll

Do you like the Gipsy Kings?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2004 20:55:06

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I have cast the first stone. I posted about their new album, which actually has flamenco on it, and I have decided that I like it a lot. Maybe they are the Britney Spears of flamenco, but so be it. I like the way they sing, I like the rhythm, I like Tonino. This new album is very organic and soulful.

I am wondering how many closet GK lovers there are here, that don't dare to say anything. Well this is an anonymous poll! Let your voice be heard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2004 20:56:51

Escribano

Posts: 6403
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I wouldn't be here without them! Let's not get snobby, allez Cataluyna!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2004 21:27:45

gerundino63

Posts: 1731
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Miguel!

I saw the gipsy kings play in a documentary from the worship place in southern France called ST. Marie de la Mere.
Every year in the summer, gipsy's come there together, to honor the black Maria.

The documentary was not about the Gipsy kings, but they were playing there just with their family........very good flamenco too!!
Taranrtas, Siguiriyas, the real stuff!

I like them too, in the rainy country where i live, it is allways very sunny music to put in the cd player, and do not forget, that it is good music to promote at least the Rumba part of the flamenco!

Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2004 21:28:57

Escribano

Posts: 6403
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ST. Marie de la Mere.

Hey, I met Golfor from St. Marie de la Mere in Jerez! He plays GK. I forgot the name of the town but now you have reminded me, thanks.

Must look him up in the local bars when I cruise through next time. I used to live on the Cote D'Azur and the comparisons with Andaluz are there, but you have to dig deeper trouver vos amis.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2004 21:32:49

Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I don´t like them at all. BVADR

If I feel for a nice Rumba swing I put on Niña Pastory. Now that´s got some flamenco in it. She sings very well and the guitarrist is awesome. And it´s from Andalucís (mi tierra)

Well it´s morning, the sun is shining. Another perfect day for gluing, so I´m of.

BTW. threads about Gipsy Kings should be deleted!!!!!

Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2004 7:34:38

sbarnard

Posts: 75
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: Marengo, IL, EE UU

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I got the new G.K.'s CD this weekend (Roots) and, well, I'm not big fan but this recording is starting to grow on me. Nothing too "pop" sounding - they even do a couple of fandangos and a bulería!

Scott

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2004 15:48:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Luckily this thread hasn't been deleted yet!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2004 15:58:52

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Where's the "I like both the Kings and Ottmar" option.

That's right, I like Ottmar. I will no longer hide and be ashamed. In fact, I like any guitarist who is better than I. That's pretty much everyone.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2004 17:34:22

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Damn, Tom, I can't support you on that one... :) I guess I'm still in the closet!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2004 18:35:10

Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Funny enough, I hate all (everyone) the guitarists which are better than me, especially those from GP.
I wanna be the BEST > g <

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2004 21:32:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hating people doesn't help you get better. If you like people you will get much further in life.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 0:02:30

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Given that about 20 mins of my set consists of numbers by the GKs, and that music accounts for about a quarter of my income, I reckon I can thank Tonino and co. for about 4% of my income

, so yes I like them. I think they have written some classic Spanish guitar pop.

Tonino writes great melodies that are fun to play, and Reyes is an excellent singer. The early albums are by far the best, though I haven't heard this new one.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 11:27:30

tanolonco

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

With so many real flamencos to listen to (thus, support) why listen to fluff when you can listen to the real stuff. What is next, fluff flamenco group X singing: "Oops, I did it again/Hit me baby one more time" to a rumba beat?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 12:53:14

bindu_72

Posts: 24
Joined: Mar. 12 2004

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to tanolonco)

Im curious, what is "Real Flamenco".

If gipsy kings play "Inspiration" and straight after PDL plays "Entre Dos Aguas". Both of which only have rasguadoes and picado runs (no tremolo's or alzapuas) and both are rumba's are we now saying the PDL is now "fluff" or the "real stuff". Infact what happens if Paco decided to play some gipsy kings reinditions does it suddenly mean that he is "Pop" or does that mean Gipsy kings is the "Real Stuff".

Bindu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 13:18:58

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to tanolonco)

The GK's are OK. I don't buy their CD's or anything only 'cos I don't study that stuff.
But it's good fun, party music and if one of their numbers comes on the radio then I turn it up. The guitar playing is good too. Really crisp and clean and I bet very difficult to do well. The fact that it's not Flamenco puro doesn't really bother me, although that's the music I like best.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 13:23:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

It's a silly thing to talk about "real" flamenco, based upon myth. Flamenco has always been commercial and if not for foreign $ would have never reached any level of sophistication. Also, don't we have a rule here not to talk about flamenco puro? It's a distasteful and erroneous argument to make.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 13:41:22

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to bindu_72)

Bindu,
I suppose Flamenco puro, is that Flamenco which is given critical acclaim by aficionados, performers and knowledgeable writers on the subject in places like Jerez, Sevilla, Cadiz, Cordoba, Granada, Malaga etc...ie the places where Flamenco originated.
My two cents...

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 13:52:15

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to bindu_72)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bindu_72

Im curious, what is "Real Flamenco".

If gipsy kings play "Inspiration" and straight after PDL plays "Entre Dos Aguas". Both of which only have rasguadoes and picado runs (no tremolo's or alzapuas) and both are rumba's are we now saying the PDL is now "fluff" or the "real stuff".

Hi Bindu

You may find this useful. Scroll down to the bit on the Gipsy Kings. I think Sals stuff is amusing, but at the same time theres a massive amount of info on flamenco on his site. (Nice guy too.)

http://herso.freeservers.com/is.html

As I think I said to you in a previous post, Rumba is considered a very minor form in flamenco. It doesn't follow the 12 beat cycle that the primary palos do, for example.
Also, there is quite a difference between a flamenco player playing a rumba accompaniment, and those GK numbers. The way they do it is kind of simplified, and in many cases (Inspiration, Faena, Pharaon) performed at a MUCH more laid back pace than a real flamenco rumba.

So thats why GKs are not really a flamenco outfit - they specialise in music that has its roots in flamenco, but is basically easy listening spanish pop based on a minor flamenco form (though they have recorded a few 'real' palos as others have said - I have a bulerias on one of their albums.)

As for Paco, he is known for his excursions into jazz fusion and Entre Dos Aguas was basically an album filler - they had time left in the studio and just jammed a rumba, with Paco soloing over the top. Most afficionadoes would probably hate it, and point to the amazing bulerias on the same album for a taste of the real thing.

Jon

PS I'm sure that the intro to the middle section where it speeds up and he plays the Em cadence is played with alzapua. Thats how I do it, anyhow.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 14:11:37

tanolonco

Posts: 18
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Paco may not have played tremelo on Entre but neither does he on Cepa Andaluz so I think we can rule out tremelo as the defining variable (by the way, he did play alzapua on Entre). Basing one's music of Rumba and not playing the puro forms, as defined by most, would be one illustration of playing non-flamenco. Again, the music they ( the group who calls themselves the Gypsy Kings) play may be good, and a lot of people like them (mostly non-flamenco types), but if you want to listen to FLAMENCO, then listen to the real thing--and support the real players.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 15:58:56

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Tanoloco, I would prefer if you don't make value judgements about what is pure and what we should listen to. It so happens that another forum that we all used to visit deteriorated because of this type of negative talk, and no good can come of it. We don't like to be told what to listen to, and we don't like people telling us what music is "pure." Of course you are welcome to share your opinions, but not of that order. I hope you understand that no disrespect is meant to you, but I am simply asking you to show respect where it is due. Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 18:20:50

Guest

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Come on Miguel. Por favor. Don´t make this to serious, I mean, it´s dead difficult to take this thread serious anyway. Gipsy Kings.... for G... sake this is a flamenco forum.
I agree that nothing is pure, but does it have to be that, well I don´t know.

Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 18:42:57

bindu_72

Posts: 24
Joined: Mar. 12 2004

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Guest)

It is quite interesting to see the kind of passion this thread has generated.

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that if you play music using the Flamenco Scales and the Phyrgian Mode then you will unmistakingly be playing flamenco that includes Soleares, Seguiriyas, Fandangos, Tangos, Bulerias and "RUMBAS". So is it not crystal clear which artists are flamenco and which are not.

In other words if you were playing music constructed around the Blues scales you would be playing the blues - whether you are playing 'pure blues' or 'pop blues' is irrelevant isn't it.

Are we just splitting hairs? Are we just talking symantics?
Or is music theory just a pile of crap !!!

Bindu.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 19:04:19

Escribano

Posts: 6403
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to bindu_72)

Let's keep it civil, guys.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 19:09:06

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to bindu_72)

quote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that if you play music using the Flamenco Scales and the Phyrgian Mode then you will unmistakingly be playing flamenco

No, not true.

A lot of folk want Flamenco to include what they regard as Flamenco, but no matter what musically sophisticated arguments anyone puts forward, generally the consensus of opinion of the working Flamenco artists and aficionados throughout the peñas of Andalucia really decides in their own judgement what is "Kosher" Flamenco and what is not.
That is the truth of the matter IMO.
What some non-Spanish folk in the USA, the UK and Europe want Flamenco to be, may differ from this.
Of course in a free country, be it right or wrong, they are entitled to hold their opinions.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 20:56:50

gerundino63

Posts: 1731
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Ron.M)

I have an old japanese cd, from the gipsy kings and Los Reyes.
It is only instrumental, only guitars the whole cd, no singing .
it is called nostalgie gitane

I consider myself as an old school flamenco guitar player.

This music is perhaps not from the highest level, BUT for me,
breathtaking!!

greetings, Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2004 21:49:09

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I love G. Kings !!!!
And even if i didnt i respect what they have done for flamenco

They have created a bridge to ease westerners into flamenco.
You can say whatever you like about them but they are responsible for bringing flamenco a wider audience.

About flamenco puro

Where does Flamenco Puro begin ? does it begin before the guitar even came into it ?

The greate thing about flamenco is that is always changing, it has to ! to capture new young generations, you or I dont control flamenco and we dont have the right to stop it from evolving the minute flamenco stops changing it becomes a dying art.

Pple from the 40's like theyr flamenco like pple from the 40's did
Pple from the 70's like theyr flamenco like pple from the 50's did
Pple from the 90's like theyr flamenco like pple from the 90's did
Why should pple from 2000 be forced to listen to and like the flamenco from the 40's ? just because some old man tells them so ?

If flamenco dont change with the time , it dont capture the attention of young pple if it dosent do that it eventually dies with you and I, because they cant relate to it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2004 1:32:04

gerundino63

Posts: 1731
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Where does Flamenco Puro begin ? does it begin before the guitar even came into it ?

AMEN Florian!

From me you get the price off hitting the nail on the right spot!

Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2004 7:37:02

bindu_72

Posts: 24
Joined: Mar. 12 2004

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Florian)

I totally agree with Florian and Gerundino has hit the nail on on the head regarding Florian hitting the nail on the spot. Now im confused :D

We should end the dabate with florians last post. Well said and very articulate. There should be no combacks from that !!!

Bindu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2004 11:43:19

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Scandalous Poll (in reply to Florian)

Why does "real" Flamenco have to mean old Flamenco performed by old men and women? Maybe you're confusing "real" with "traditional".
There are plenty young guitarists playing "modern" style chords and rhythms and plenty of young singers and dancers in their teens and 20's who are playing and performing "real" Flamenco.
It may not be to the taste of some of the older generation, but it's still regarded as "real" Flamenco.
Some other styles, say like "Ojos de Brujo" are regarded as Flamenco influenced, but not "real" Flamenco.
Would PdL, Tomatito, Jose Merce, Capullo etc call the GK's Flamenco?
I kinda doubt it.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2004 12:42:27