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RE: Volume and lowering the action
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Sherman
Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 15 2007
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RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I've been following this topic with much interest, can't say I fully understand it all, but still it is interesting. Some observations from an old Guild classical spruce top from the 60's may be interesting. Anyhow, this guitar is a Mark 2, which I bought used in Arizona about three years ago. It has a smaller much shallower body than my other classicals, almost flamenco in appearance, but that's where the similarity ends. At the saddle the height of the strings over the top was about 14 mm. My guess is some of this was caused by the raising of the top behind the bridge, because there is a significant "dome" there". So I thought it best to reduce some of the tension on the guitar by lowering the saddle a mm. So now it is about 13 mm at the saddle from the strings to the soundboard. Action height at the 12th fret is about 3.75 mm on the bass side. It plays very well, no buzzing at all except on the bass side above the 15th fret where it makes an odd noise when fretting as though the string is contacting frets on both sides, but I can live with that. Anyhow, just my observations on an old classical guitar which I happen to like a lot. Sherman
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Date Nov. 17 2007 18:50:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
IMHO opinion, a VERY good setup will be some 7 - 8mm string above the soundboard at the bridge, 8 - 9 mm at the soundhole and 6th string above the 12th fret around 3mm. Wow I just measured my Conde negra, the one everyone likes best, and that is EXACTLY the set up. Hair under 8 at the bridge, 9.5 at the hole. 3 at the 12th. This guitar does not have the easiest action of all my guitars, nor the weakest or loudest volume. But it is pretty much perfect for everyone that tries it. Break angle is extremely shallow. The other negra is, 10mm at the bridge, 10.5 or less at the hole, and 2mm at the 12th. Much easier action, sound is still good, but more buzz of course. Despite the MUCH steeper break angle over the bone, the guitar is not louder than the other. They are close perhaps the other is a bit louder, but again I attribute that to it having a little more bass. Both guitars have GREAT mid range. Regarding classical flamenco hybrids, I think that either of these guitars (I described above) with a higher bone and different strings brand (like Daddario hard tension), Slow Bach would come off great. I think one could do well with a flamenco negra, and just different bone and strings for "classical" mode. (I am talking for folks that absolutely MUST have only one instrument for both). Likewise, I think a Hauser with a low bone, tap plate or one of those static cling on plastic protectors, and some La Bella 820's, would make a great flamenco. Problems is the initial set up of the bridge won't allow for a real low bone with out total buzzing. I actually started learning flamenco on a Ramirez 1a with my own tap plate put on. That was tough! Rasgueados were never sounding right until I got the right kind of guitar.
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Date Nov. 17 2007 21:34:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Fitna A.)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fitna A. quote:
I dont' understand the physics but, lowering the strings closer to the board, makes the guitar lose a little volume (you would think the opposite!). It's the lever of the bridge. Stringoscillation causes a tensiondifference between the nut and the saddle. The bridge gets the function of a lever to get the soundboard moving. A highter bridge transport the oscillation to the soundboard more effective than a low bridge Ok, I see now. So the break angle behind the bridge is not necessarily the thing then. That makes more sense based on experience. I have seen guitars with shallow break but high action that are still louder than guitars with a steep break and very low action. Also, low action guitars even with high bridge are not always loud, probably because when the strings buzz by hitting the frets, the oscillation is not allowed to be so efficient. (?) So, I think the neck/fingerboard angle and height has something to do with it too. Meaning, these guitars with raised fingerboard and super high bridges, are not super loud guitars (like Humphrey millenium). So higher tension strings regain volume on low action guitars. Anyway, just my thoughts, not based on any real physics.
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Date Nov. 21 2007 19:10:47
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