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ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
 

beware of gypsies and skinheads 

so this moroccan guy i met in prague, when he found out what neighborhood i was going to that night for this bar, told me "to watch out for the skinheads and gypsies". thought it was sad and funny, but i did run into a boatload of skins that night who weren't happy with me at all.

my question is this: are most nations in europe so racist against gypsies? i've only been traveling in europe the past few years but i've received warnings in france, italy, hungary and austria about gypsies, like "put your wallet in your front pocket cause there are gypsies about", or "don't go there at night, place is full of gypsies" kind of stuff. and man, they really hate gypsies in florence!

is it like this everywhere? i'm assuming its not so in spain. or is it? that crap would fly only in the dumbest, most intolerant parts of the US. but i can't imagine someone saying to me "watch out for the blacks" or "that place is full of mexicans so be careful".

just curious as its all new to me.

skinheads however are everywhere and wear such lovely boots.

doug
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 8:03:31
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto



They no more or less racist than anywhere else, just havent been trained or place as much importance on sounding politicaly correct, they are more direct.

All gipsyes are not criminals but they are also not all Flamenco Stars, they will survive however they can, they have different values.
I had many gipsyes friends in Romania growing up, i didnt and still dont see them as good or bad, i just see them as normal.

Some will steal your wallet, some will feel sorry for you and help you, it is silly to assume that everyone is the same.

At the same time this people that were telling you this things were doing it because they were looking out for you soo i dont know...

the world is not as perfect as we would like to belive, and everything is not so black and white. right or wrong all the time when you look at the big picture.

under the circumstances since they lived there and were looking out for you, i guess mibe they had theyr reasons for telling you this.

I dont know I wish i had a simpler black and white explonation

just cause someone says it more politicaly acceptable or dosent say it because of fear of how they will be precieved by others dosent make it any less racist if they are thinking it.

I gues we all have a longher way to go before we can pretend like we are perfect as long as we all accept eachothers imprefections as humans, silly missconceptions, stereotypical mistakes, unawareness and not get so hang up on what we are thats close enough.

u need a sense of houmor, your race or nationality is not you, the person you are is you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 8:51:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13243
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

Most of the time, people are warning you about encountering "gangs" or groups of people that happen to be of a certain race or whatever. It is not so much about just putting a group of people down as to warn you to be careful when you are by yourself to avoid being ganged up on. No one warns a gang of gypsies about a lone skin head around the corner.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 8:58:15
 
Jan Willem

 

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

I'm from belgium and in my neighbourhood there are some gipsy families. I can say we aren't racist AT ALL. But we can't denie the facts that since they live here the number of burglary has increased a lot. There even have been actual arrests.

It's not that they are bad people, it's just that their social-economic condition is that bad, they are tempted to do crime. Problem with Gipsys is that they refuse to integrate themselves in the society they live in. So they want to be on there own, and that is exactly what they are; on there own. And in the world we live in that can be quite hard. But it's true that Gipsy's have to encounter a lot of prejudice and I regret that. But if they want that to change, it will have to come from them.

Off course a great majority is victim cause of the bad behaviour of a little few. But that's the way it goes for all etnic minorities, not particullary Gipsys. So that is a very consistant reaction from a society.

IMO
JW
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 9:01:10
 
Jan Willem

 

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

quote:

No one warns a gang of gypsies about a lone skin head around the corner.


Isn't that the best time to .....kick his ass :-)...Go Gipsys!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 9:08:23
 
andresito

Posts: 377
Joined: Feb. 20 2007
From: New Holland

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Florian

Well said, Flo. I'll be expecting a lot from your next post!
I have a friend in Spain who gave me the impression that the Spanish think of gypsies as a kind of sketchy noveau-riche with holes in their shoes, mercedes and pockets full of crumpled $50 bills... Don't take this as anti-semitic but Jews tend to promote themselves as persecuted when not everyone knows there were also many, many gypsies sent to concentration camps, and they continue to be persecuted, treated like garbage or just ignored in most countries.
I think the best music comes out of the ****tiest social situations, e.g. blues, jazz, reggae, flamenco, andean music, gypsy jazz... the music of slaves, the colonised, and outcasts. There's a depth of feeling and expression in the music that only comes from a struggle to survive and a fatalistic appreciation of the human condition. I can't explain this in words as well as Latcho Drom does in music and images.
We despise in others that which we most fear in ourselves...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 9:52:20
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1668
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

In my oppinion it it has more to do with poverty.

Poor bad people steal on the street.
rich bad people steel in the office.

Peter.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 10:32:38
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to andresito

quote:

Well said, Flo.!


Now that you mention it ... i read what i said and i must say, I am a smart MOF!


quote:

I'll be expecting a lot from your next post


ok but this one dosent count

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 10:40:08
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Jan Willem

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jan Willem
since they live here the number of burglary has increased a lot.

Yeah that happens in UK when 'travellers' as we PC people like to call there here move into the area. But in this case there's no evidence that it's the travellers doing the stealing. Could just be the local thieves thinking, 'hey lets do loads more burglaries, and then the gypsies will get blamed for them!' Generally the travellers have a lot of trouble accessing school and health facilities, and there is a lot of prejudice.

About 25 years ago I was travelling in eastern Europe. While in the wilds of Romania (really - I was in Transylvania) I went on a local train which was filled with gypsies. They carried their money wrapped up in bits of cloth tucked into their clothing and when a man walked up and down the train selling penknives they were all keen to buy - maybe a useful implement to their way of life? Anyway they were very interested in me - I think they hadn't seen any backpackers before, and a woman travelling alone with a big rucksack was obviously a novelty. We had no common language, so the conversation generally consisted of a lot of smiling and nodding , and the women kept petting me and stroking my arms. It was like they'd found a stray puppy! They were most interested in the sweater I was wearing which had silver threads in - don't know if they thought it was real silver. I gave it one of them in the end. Of course this is a long time ago, and I'm sure there's been a lot of change in Romania.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 10:44:21
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

When I first came to Granada I was told by a fellow student that the one area I should never go was the Gypsy barrio of Almanjayar. He said I should not even drive through it in case my car broke down as it was so dangerous. Shortly afterwards I met the kids from Almanjayar who invited us to their neighbourhood for a gig. We went in the car and guess what........it broke down. We pushed it to the side of the road and went to the party, afterwards we had to get a taxi home, not so easy as taxis just dont cruise round Almanjayar. Last week there was a bus strike as the drivers are refusing to go to that part of town.

Anyway the following day we went back to fix the car and found it just as we had left it. We became regular visitors though it always amazed me how the kids would know we were coming like there was a bush telegraph that sent out smoke signals or something, 'guirris in a car heading your way'. One scary moment happened when I was there fetching some tools from a lock up with one of the group, we stepped out onto the street and there were some young lads with rifles pointed at us. "Just walk slowly and dont look back" was my friend's advice which is what I did, not easy with a gun pointed at you.

So I guess I am saying that people who say beware can be right but maybe not for the right reasons, some areas are dangerous, though it probably has more to do with poverty and drugs than specific race. I would say it was no different from telling tourists in the States not to just wander into the housing projects or crack dens in the Hood.

Without a doubt the guy who told me not to go Almanjayar was looking out for me, but he was also prejudice against the Gypsies, and I found working with Anaquerando ( a Gypsy Association which aims to help integration) that sadly this sort of ignorant prejudice is common.

When we rebuilt our old house here we employed a load of friends who happened to be Gitanos from Almanjayar to work with us, the reaction of the builder we had contracted was that we woud get into a whole heap of trouble and be ripped off big time. However the reality was that we cut his fee for the work in half as he was charging us double what he actually paid his guys. So to my mind it was him trying to rip us off and using this 'fear' of Gypsies to convince us.

There is still a long way to go to tackle this prejudice. One evening I was visiting a Gypsy family when their 17 year old daughter was doing her homework. I was shocked to see it was simply colouring in, and when I questioned this at the Gypsy Association I was told quite blatantly by the people who worked there that that was all that would be expected from a Gypsy girl. Without doubt there is an inequality here amongst the poor Gitanos. However many are well integrated and far removed from the poor Gitanos of the Poligonos.

Also not all Gypsies in Europe are of the same 'tribe' and can be prejudiced against each other. The Cale generally do not like the Roma who beg, and have a total dislike of the 'Hungaros' who travel around with goats that sit on, actually they are tied on to, poles, though of course not all Roma beg and not all Hungaros stick goats on poles.

In the UK they changed the laws and no longer recognise the Gypsy as a race but class it as a lifestyle, casually getting round any accusation of racial prejudice, as anyone can register themselves as a 'Traveller'. A recent case was an English MP whose village had a carnival where they pulled a caravan with effigies of Gypsies inside it, including children, through the streets and which they then set on fire. The MP who was involved registered himself as a 'traveller' and then claimed he could not be prejudice. It was a total disgrace but still the case against him for inciting racial hatred was dropped by the Commission for Racial Equality.

Years ago I worked with the Anti racist campaign in London and was involved with a community of Romanichal who had bought and settled their own land in East London. I was saddened recently to find that these families are to be forcibly removed and their land taken from them to make way for the Olympics.

As I was writing this there was a knock at my door and there stood an old Gitano, stick in hand, hat on head which he removed respectfully. He told me he had come to find the ' tecnico sonido' who worked with Gitanos. I had to ask him to return later as Harold is out so dont know what he wants yet but it made me think of one more thing before I finish this post. Which is that when we first came here and before we had our own studio we went to several recording studios in Granada and all of them said quite openly that they would not work with Gitanos. Its a crying shame but it is something that has to be tackled together, Gypsies and Payos alike.

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2007 10:47:14
 
ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
 

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

thanks for all the replies, everyone. pretty informative and fascinating. will have to read up more on this.

doug
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2007 0:39:06
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

i had a roma teenager try to nab my wallet, got it back and gave him a swift kick up the backside for his troubles. i hate the attitude amongst the roma kids that its ok to rob from others richer than you,i had my weeks pay in the wallet and i would have been screwed by the landlady and to go hungry for the week.

thing that p-isses me off the most is some of the parents throw the roma kids out onto the street to play busted accordions with an awful din, and then beat them later if they didnt get any money.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2007 14:55:20
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

funny thing, a white kid could wander around the projects unharmed. cops care when a white kid gets killed. strange world

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2007 7:40:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13243
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

funny thing, a white kid could wander around the projects unharmed. cops care when a white kid gets killed. strange world

hmmm, not funny, and not true. Projects much less, try a college campus. But no point in generalizing, it depends specifically what we are talking about.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2007 18:55:35
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Ricardo

Hate to be dim here guys, but what's a 'project'? US speak for a particular area?

HMan might be right that when a white kid gets kills it seems to spark more outrage.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2007 19:05:22
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

projects housing projects, like slums on the northside of dublin.

big buildings, state housings. low rent. generally associated with alot of crme, drugs and nogoodness. amazingly somehow people live there.

ricardo, i mean chicago. lol if the cops hear a white middle class irish kid got killed in the projects, you can bet everyone around would be taken in for questioning lol. that really is the truth. senor lloviendo!!! lol

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2007 22:20:05
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to HemeolaMan

OK I get it now, thanks for the explanation. Possibly our equivalent of council estates?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan
if the cops hear a white middle class irish kid got killed in the projects, you can bet everyone around would be taken in for questioning


There seem to have been loads of teenage stabbings/shootings in UK over the last few months - and to be fair there is just as much media coverage of black kids. But in a famous case from a few years ago where a black boy was stabbed, the police were certainly criticized for not acting quickly and efficiently.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 0:49:19

JBASHORUN

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 2:14:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13243
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

ricardo, i mean chicago. lol if the cops hear a white middle class irish kid got killed in the projects, you can bet everyone around would be taken in for questioning lol.


That is better, specifics. The reason for THAT is because the cops there are on the payroll of the Irish mob, if not family members. So, see what happens if an Italian kid gets it! Sort of funny, but not really....

I have so many ugly real life examples of people close to me that I don't feel like sharing, but my basic feeling is that it does not matter what your race is, if you are alone and encounter a "gang" of another type, and they have a certain mentality at that moment, you are introuble. And if you live, there is very little that can be done unless you have witnesses and such, in other words, another "gang" on YOUR side. So avoiding these situations is smart, regardless of your race.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 7:38:33
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

They no more or less racist than anywhere else, just havent been trained or place as much importance on sounding politicaly correct, they are more direct.


Very good point. What's politically correct is also different depending on the culture's history. The US is very careful with African Americans for obvious reasons whereas in Germany blacks are just like any other foreigners or immigrants from another continent. In Germany they're careful with Turkish people because of 3rd generation Turks having difficulty immigrating. Of course in every country you'll find people who hate every race but their own, funny though is you'll find more Neo-Nazis in Idaho than in all of Germany...

Seattle where I was raised is RELATIVELY safe for a US metropole of it's size. There are areas, like Hilltop in Tacoma, where if you're white and caught alone by a gang you will most definitely be killed.

Doesn't mean other races are safe though. Anyone hanging around in a slum who looks like they have something of value is in danger.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 10:43:39
 
el ted

 

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003
 

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 11:18:09
 
hamia

 

Posts: 382
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to el ted

quote:

ORIGINAL: el ted

Beware of Quantity Surveyors!!



They won't attack - just size you up ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 15:32:15
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to hamia

...maybe write you up a little quote...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 15:59:40
 
Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

Thank God I live in a small village of bavaria. Usually there's no danger, just a few youngsters who think they must hate foreigners. They usually change their minds as soon as they have to work with them... If anybody wants a scuffle, we have invented the "Oktoberfest" .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 16:22:08
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Georg

This photo was taken in Fuengirola.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 17:15:07
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Kate

Wow that's shocking, such open racism. Sounds as if it might have been written by some English-speaking people who live on an urbanizacion there?

Our apartment is on an urbanizacion too, and there have been some petty thefts from people who leave their front doors open when they are in the gardens at the back. But there's no suggestion this was any particular group of people - just someone willing to steal when they get an opportunity, and some daft foreigners willing to provide the opportunity. But unless you are willing to live in a secure fortress, you can't completely stop burglars, only deter them by putting more barriers in their way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2007 17:28:30
 
ricecrackerphoto

Posts: 265
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
 

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to Ailsa

kate, that is an unbelievable pic. thanks for posting.

that's kind of what i meant: the open racism i experienced was so ridiculously blunt, it was almost funny.

maybe i should post to a ska/oi/skinhead forum and ask them about gypsies.

doug
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2007 2:50:26
 
John O.

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Darmstadt, Germany

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

Maybe the problem here is that neither Romani nor Sinti are referred to but 'Gypsies', considered derogatory to begin with, which also (inaccurately) refers to 'nomads' in general which are known for robbing and swindling. Don't know how it is with the term 'Gitano' but 'Gyp' means to swindle.

As a child I remember the joke every year during vacation that my parents would sell me to the Gypsies if I was naughty.

It's not the same as saying "Beware of the Americans" or something like that. Of course it's still racist. I dunno, I'm babbling again...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2007 9:37:01
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

Last night BBC world were looking at the Roma in Europe. They reported that it was Europes' largest ethnic minority, but then they did not break it down into Roma, Sinti, Manouche, Cale etc or whether these people were immigrants or nationals or in which specific countries they were. There are currently court cases going on in Cheqslavakia ( sorry bad spelling) where Roma parents are demanding that their children be given the same education as others, currently Roma children are put in special needs schools regardless of their ability. The report also said that Italy is repatriating over 200,000 immigrant Roma back to Romania. The reports were accompanied by typical footage of Roma begging, no mention of those that have businesses or are professionals etc.

Apparantly there are over 1,000,000 Roma in the States, there is a book called "The Hidden Americans" about this. Here's some interesting articles by Ian Hancock
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/RR/pxrfh.html
http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/antigypsyism.htm

Kate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2007 16:36:10
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: beware of gypsies and skinheads (in reply to ricecrackerphoto

in ireland the traveller community are persecuted to a large degree, there was uproar a few years ago when a guy called padraig nally shot a traveller on his property and who had previously been under the suspicion of nally for trying to rob his farm as he caught the traveller on his land before snooping about the farm.

hers the link to the case but the facts are contradictory at times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig_Nally
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2007 17:30:17
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