Accompanying Cante for solo work

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Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

Accompanying Cante for solo work

It is always said by virtually every famous guitarist, that you must accompany Cante before you would be able to do solo stuff, but for the life of me I can’t see why, a strong compass is essential, but you could get that from playing to a metronome, they seem like two different disciplines, they say a solo is imitating the melodic lines of the Cante, but most melodies in solo falsetas by say PDL to my ear, don’t sound anything like the melodic lines of a singer, is it just an initiation thing, where your not a man unless you have accompanied Cante for 20 years.
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 2:28:07

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

I have yet had the opportunity to accompany a singer but I think when accompanying a singer, you develop "aire". You actually feel flamenco instead of just playing it.

A singer pours out his heart and emotions. Once you've experience that, you learn how to do the same with your guitar. A singer has it easy because he uses his heart. What's inside naturally. We have to convey those emotions with our hands through our guitars.

This is just my opinion for whatever it's worth. I could be totally wrong but this is how I see it. I won't know for sure until I can accompany one day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 14:10:40

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

Dave;

The flamenco guitar soloist of the day and as of late, need not know anything about flamenco and certainly not cante! A soloist need only be able to play riffs, play lots of notes, preferably fast and loud. You attempt to dazzle the crowd with your command of the guitar. Chances are your audience will not know a damn thing about flamenco and crown you king of the province.

The down side of this is for those that are introduced or required at some point to play for the cante or a dancer. That separates the men from the boys. Most people outside of Spain learn how to play flamenco guitar solo, and never experience accompaniment. It seems to me that those players who “came up through the ranks” (learned accompaniment first) become better guitarists.

There are a lot of good flamenco guitar players who have never accompanied anyone, don’t know how and could care less. If they make a buck then they are a success. Otherwise who cares?

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http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 16:25:23

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Cheers Tom, It always seems a put down used by other guitarists, when they say 'they are good, but can't accompany', Incidentally, how do you learn to accompany Cante, just by listning to recordings, then edging you bets, having a go one night in a bar, or paying a singer to show you the chords.?
Seems a mystery to me how it would be taught.
Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 16:43:08

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

Dave,
forget it, you can play like Paco de Lucia if you like, but if you can't learn to accompany an arrogant cantaor, you aren't worth frijoles!

Yes, every guitarist says this.... so it must be true. I play for dance classes a bit, and that supposedly develops a strength and solidity of compas that you can't get anywhere. If you have ever played for dancers, if there is more than two or them in a room it sounds like a herd of elephants. You develop a way of playing the guitar which challenges both the word "playing" and "guitar"--if you know what I mean.

As far as accompanying cante, to do so you must have an intimate knowledge of flamenco melodies, chord changes, and feel. Perhaps the answer is that if if learn all this stuff, then it makes whatever else you play have that solid foundation. I've also noticed that it sounds that instead of playing a change on the beat, they play just after the beat. Like the singer hits the note on the 3, and then the guitarist hits it on the 3e. Perhaps these are the kind of things that really change your touch and the way you perceive and execute the music. But I haven't accompanied cante, I don't know.

Tom does bring up a good point, though... if you just want to play solo flamenco guitar and you aren't in Spain--maybe it doesn't matter! The subtle differences in aire between the person who has these experiences and he does not would probably be lost on the audiences in Phoenix, AZ, or Manchester or whatever anyway. And don't waste half your life learning a discipline just so you don't embarrass yourself when some drunk old Spanish lady orders you to accompany her stomping!
:)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 19:59:14

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

Very interesting discussion, i think the best place to learn playing for singers is at partyes and you have to be willing to "risk it all" :) and come out of your confort zone without worring about " AM I gonna embaras myself ?'.

Another valiable way of learning is playing along with a cd, some songs have the guitar so low in the background that you can just hear your own guitar along with the cante.

Once you get to learn the melodyes you will know where to accent where to play soft where to close a phrase by doing a rasqueado eg Buleria. 6 7 8 9 10.

Dont overcomplicate it for yourself at first only worry about playing in compas , playing the right chords and know where to end it with an " A chord , or keep it going.

IF it sounds good and its in compas well than it is good you dont have to play it like Moraito the first time.
Ps i can fing some recordings without any guitar and show you what i mean if anyone is interested.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2004 22:36:26

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

And don't waste half your life learning a discipline just so you don't embarrass yourself when some drunk old Spanish lady orders you to accompany her stomping!
:)

Good point, also I know Todd has rubbed some people up, and he does smack of some spoilt 'Hick' american kid, but even the best aficinado would be hard pressed to tell thge difference between a Tomotito falesta and one played by Todd.
Also the solo Cante CD without the guitar I would think useless for learning to accompany, maybe with Amazing slowdowner you could delete the guitar playing, if it was recorded in sterio on seperate channels, then attempt to play along?
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 11:18:40

Guest

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

Hola

If you want a perspective from Andalucia, then I have to say that if you open your guitar case here, someone will start to sing and you will have to accompany. It is as simple as that. If you live in Spain you will have to accompany. If you plan to live in Spain sometime in the future, you need to learn it, but the only way to learn it is by doing it.

You can and should practice with recordings, but this will only give you a foundation. It is a bit like studying Spanish in college: you learn the grammar and some irrelevant vocabulary, come to Andalucia and you cannot understand a single word:-). But in time, your study allows you to speak better Spanish.

If you never plan to come to Flamencoland, I suppose it does not matter what you play: an audience which knows nothing about flamenco will be more impressed by technique and will not notice if you go out of compas or have no aire.

In Andalucia, the flamencos are very generous and accomodating and you will be encouraged for trying, no matter how badly you play.

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 14:49:00

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Billyboy)

Hey Sean , thanks for contribuing, good to see a new face

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 14:52:55

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Florian)

Very good and informative post Sean!

You know, I often have to speak to luthiers in Spain. I can communicate with them without any problems. BUT, when I speak to someone in certain parts like Almeria, I get lost and often have trouble trying to keep up.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 15:00:56

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Good to see some posts on this subject.

I have the luxury of living in an American city with relatively quite a few singers.

Sometimes, a singer likes to train the younger/newer flamenco guitarists to accompany. For the most part, they are pretty forgiving. And let me be clear, *ITS EASY TO MAKE A MISTAKE*.

There is a ton of stuff to be learned by playing for cante. You really have to have good control over volume, because some of these guitars are sooo loud.

Another Miguel de María alluded to, which is that a guitarist can jump to a chord late, after the singer has moved to the next note, but a guitarist should *never* jump to the chord early. Try it sometime, you'll see what I mean.

It's true, playing for dance really solidifies a sense of compás for any guitarist who accompanies dance. If at all possible, go play at a dance class, but be mindful of how loud you are playing - be respectful to the other guitarists.

For those who don't live in cities with a fair number of Andaluzes, there's really no other possibility other than learning to play with cds, then some day trying with a singer who doesn't mind you trying. When you play with a cd, work out every compás with the details, you'll learn a ton, in fact I am doing just that and it's a good learning experience.

PLaying for a singer is a humbling experience. There are some people here who have accompanied for a long time, and they also tend to tolerate the younger guitarists, thank god...

I don't have a ton of accomp. experience, but I do have some and I really want to get back to it.

In any case, I think there are just a lot of things one can learn by playing for singers and I couldn't begin to articulate them all, but volume control is definitely one. There are also many, many variations to soleá or really any palo, and the more familiar you are with them, the more your toque will reflect that. It's a real confidence builder too.

I have nothing but respect for anyone who tries it.

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 20:02:36

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Accompanying Cante for solo work (in reply to Guest)

quote:

In Andalucia, the flamencos are very generous and accomodating and you will be encouraged for trying, no matter how badly you play.

That was my experience, last year. This year I am going to find some poor soul to try to learn the basics of Soleares cante with

When I hear flamenco now, I am waiting for the singer to come in. Quite the reverse from a year ago.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2004 21:44:53