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ROMERITO!!   You are logged in as Guest
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jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

ROMERITO!! 

your inbox is full!
so heres my response:
To a degree, I believe the terms flamenco and gypsy are synonymous with one another. However, as I am sure you are well aware of, flamenco has evolved to where the two terms are almost becoming dichotomous to each other. I agree with hood, with regards to throwing yourself into a musical culture in order to understand it fully, but to what degree? I see many schools in Spain advertising to learn this folk art. So if I go to one of these private schools, and cough up 5 grand, does that make me ’flamenco’? Or do I have to be born into it? What if I learn from PDL? I think I recommended Blackening’s “How musical is man.” He addresses some of these issues by looking at the role of music in a society and culture. Check out Victor Turners 3 stages of passage (borrowed from Van Gennup’s words) and his takes on the liminal stage…I’m sure we could apply his theory to some of your interests. I would argue that in order for one to become a good/knowledgeable aficionado, one must understand cante. But it is still a grey area as far as what the person needs to know in order to identify with flamenco. What if I just know compas? What would I be then? To many, that means I understand flamenco. So if I understand flamenco does that inherently make me a flamenco? Or how much of culture does an outsider need to comprehend in order to be “accepted” or even tolerated? Have you read Clifford Geertz’ “Balinese Cockfight”? This work discusses how he, Geertz, came to be accepted by the Balinese people by running from the police with them. It’s an interesting read as far cultural and social acceptance. We also need to look at the individual’s epistemology and, to an extent, phenomenology. I think if we were to study one’s own phenomenological experience, it would be easier to understand where they are coming from and how they can fit into the ever so fleeting culture of flamenco. What I am curious about is why a certain form of music emerges at a particular time? How does a musical structure form in a particular society and how it may have, at some point in time, become a global phenomenon? One of my flamenco friend’s asked Jason Mcguire when he thinks a non-Spaniard will become famous in flamenco. His response: not for a very long time. OK I’m rambling, got to run to class…hope we can continue this.
Best
juben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2007 18:55:05
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
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RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to jrabbani

?

Ok.. You´ll get the doctorate for shure...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 23 2007 20:42:04
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to jrabbani

YOUR INBOX IS FULLLLLLL

his first name is MARCEL
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2007 23:09:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

?

Ok.. You´ll get the doctorate for shure...



Man that is funny! But I like these types of discussions, I wish you guys would open it up.

I think if you can do palmas well, not just BS'ing, meaning you could do palmas by yourself for a solo dancer, solo guitarist,solo singer, or in a juerga, you cross the line from aficionado to flamenco, as far as terminology goes. It is not enough to "understand compas". You have to demonstrate something. The problem is you will find many aficionados who do palmas, or sing, or play guitar BADLY, and want to be considered more than aficionados...if you get my meaning. And this goes for Spaniards, gitanos, guiries, payos, etc...everyone who is into flamenco. Of course you will also find very humble aficionados who can sing REALLY good, or dance or play guitar, but are too shy to really participate or consider what they do, real "flamenco".

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2007 4:59:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2007 5:27:44
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

find this article: Papapavlou, M. 2003.The City as a Stage: Flamenco in Andalusian Culture. University of Thessali.

she addresses some of the differences of gitanos and non-gitanos in jerez. its interesting how she differentiates the two....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2007 5:32:40
 
Jasmine_27

Posts: 67
Joined: Mar. 26 2007
From: Tokyo

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

Ya just gotta trust us, man...We might surprise you with an eloquent and erudite discourse on flamenco origins! What's your doctorate about? Tell us more! Did you read Loren Chuse' take on this? In her book (The Cantaoras: Music, Gender, and Identity in Flamenco Song), she indicates that flamenco developed amidst four marginalized groups that comprised the underclass in Andalusian society: a) relatively unassimilated groups such as moriscos and gitanos; b) local bandits and smugglers; c) rural migrant laborers and peasants; and d) urban proletariat/factory workers. She also notes the impact of majismo, a brand of urban xenophobia brandished by disaffected working-class youth who despised foreign influences and embraced both flash and flamenco in self-defense. It's more complex than this, of course! I'm also curious about the influence of 600 years of Moorish culture and its impact on the development of flamenco, as some modes used in flamenco were apparently adopted/adapted from Arabic music. I wonder if there are parallels in the cante as well?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2007 15:31:25
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2007 17:20:52
 
Jasmine_27

Posts: 67
Joined: Mar. 26 2007
From: Tokyo

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

Hi - I'm starting oud lessons next Sunday, and though I know little about music theory, my teacher (also a Kevin!) told me that solea is based on the hijaz mode. There must be other correlations as well, so I'll keep you posted. There's also a web site (maqamworld .com) that has written and aural sound bites of scales and maqam-based improvisations that might be interesting for you to listen to. Cameron Powers, a Colorado-based oud musician, has also compiled an introductory text with written and aural examples of 31 of the most common scales used in Arabic music. If you're interested in attending a workshop, Simon Shaheen organizes a one-week Arabic music retreat at Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts every August. This is for experienced musicians only, so I don't qualify by a long shot, but you'd get the chance to get some hands-on experience with this ancient tradition.

I'm also interested in cante, and am learning Spanish with an eye to appreciating the lyrics more myself. I'd like to know more about Hispano-Arabic poetry and song traditions, but in re-reading Don Pohren's Lives and Legends of Flamenco tonight, I found a passage concerning Indian musicians and dancers in Cadiz (c. 500 BCE) and the impact of sacred temple dance on Spanish religious celebrations. Pohren's book was originally written in 1964, so more recent scholarship may shed some light on this aspect of flamenco, but he's also compiled a fairly comprehensive synopsis of many of the most famous gitano cantaors - all the way from El Planeta to 1988, complete with translations of many lyrics. Some academicians deride Pohren's book for his strident opinions, but I love it! It's really a classic and I always feel like he's lived what the ivory-tower academics can only theorize about. Maybe it's wanna-be jealousy! I just wish he'd write a second update and share his views on contemporary flamenco as well.

Anyway, it'd be really fascinating to trace the Arabic and/or Indian influences on flamenco music and song. I just wish I had the linguistic and musical skills to jump into a project like this - it's really exciting to explore things like this!

I'd like to see your bibliography, and if you ever offer an on-line class, I'll be the first to sign up!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2007 12:53:46
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2007 15:32:30
 
Jasmine_27

Posts: 67
Joined: Mar. 26 2007
From: Tokyo

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

Hi -

I think the oud teacher I've found is a phenomenon! He plays strings and percussion like a madman and is a graceful singer as well. I also found out he plays flamenco guitar, so it's a match made in heaven! If you and your wife come visit Tokyo, you should check him out! His name is Wakabayashi.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2007 1:20:09
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

kevin
are you using any cantometric theory, by Lomax, by chance? I will be using it for some of my work, just curious what your thoughts are about such a theory...
juben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 7:01:46
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 8:27:36
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

yeah he has some great footage. and its wild to think how many thousands of recordings he has made. but not too many people know about his cantometric stuff, look into it, great stuff man

juben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 8:35:44
 
Estevan

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to jrabbani

Aha, the ethnomusicologists are coming out of the woodwork!
This is important stuff being discussed, and it shouldn't be in the "Off Topic" department (or even the ROMERITO sub-department - with all due respect )

The insider-outsider theme is such a never-ending one (and one that I'll bring over to our earlier discussion of Indian music and flamenco, if I ever get around to it), and a source of great stories, like the famous Geertz example you mentioned.

As for 'cantometrics', I heard about it back in pre-history, probably from Tim Rice - maybe you know him, Juben? I recall something about a correlation between vocal tone and sexual repression. (Of course, there's a bit more to it than that, but these are the kinds of things that stick in the mind...)

Here's an article that seems to give a useful synopsis, including:

" the example which first let the cat out of the cantometrics bag; 'Folk Song Style and Culture', Introduction. During a major collecting exercise in Spain in 1953, Lomax noticed that the intensity of local sexual prohibition was reflected in the vocal tones adopted by his singers. Thin, harsh, high pitched and piercing, with intense emotional delivery, in the proscriptive south . Broader, softer, lower pitched and more relaxed in the comparatively permissive north . A recording trip to Italy, two years later, found the pattern repeated."

Discuss amongst youselves

Cantometrics: Song and Social Culture
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 19:39:40
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 19:58:57
 
Estevan

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

I agree; I did some graduate work in ethnomusicology and one of my profs observed (with ironic understatement) that I maintained "a healthy skepticism towards the academic endeavour".

Any of the -ologies can, as you say, have a tendency to "reach"; sometimes, it seems, in the direction of editing the facts to suit the theory. But there is good and useful stuff to be found, as well as the opposite, though some of the latter may serve its purpose in securing the author's academic position. It's just the nature of the beast.

Yes, academia can be 'anti-flamenco', as it can be anti- anything that can not be precisely reduced to a written description and analysis.

But it doesn't have to be; it depends who's doing the work. So we're counting on you. (No pressure, but...)


P.S. Lomax's 'cantometric' theory is controversial and far from universally accepted.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 20:13:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2007 20:32:23
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Estevan

estevan
did you earn your degree in ethno as well?
haven't heard of Rice, i'll look into him though. and I do agree with -ologies having a tendency to "reach." I even find that in my field of study (anthropology). and the wasabaugh book is interesting, insightful on certain levels, but interesting nonetheless. but this does not i mean i agree or disagree with him.

and Kevin, continue with hood and merriam, they have some wonderful ideas about music.and have you read john blacking's "how musical is man?" another good read for anthro/ethno.
also, i don't know if you've dabbled into other social theory, but Pierre Bourdieu and his "aristocracy of culture" is an excellent read and theory. he equates a person's wealth to their culture (high or low culture, and music is a big part of it).
finally, check out kay kaufman shelemay's "the ethnomusicologist, ethnographic method and the transmission of tradition."

ok back to the books!
juben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2007 3:00:10
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

kevin
have you dabbled into "sentimental inauthenticity" by Lawrence Grossberg? Its a postmodern approach, but I think it would be useful in explaining some of the flamenco phenomenons around the world. anyways, just wondering if you're familiar with such a concept.
juben
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2007 8:44:38
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2007 16:36:04
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

transfering eh? where ya headed? and I will be taking GRE classes too this summer..fantastic. Oh well, good luck with that, and if you need someone to read your drafts, I'm your man!

Jose is coming to my class next week! I'm looking forward to it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2007 20:36:08
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2007 23:44:04
 
Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
 

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

Jrab said
To a degree, I believe the terms flamenco and gypsy are synonymous with one another

Right now I am in Istanbul Turkey and will be so until the end of summer.
I am Turkish and half gypsy(That is my mother's side are Gypsies or Cingene as they are called here) Growing up I would repeatedly here my father call my mother in anger CINGENE. When he did so he was not saying you FLAMENCO on the contrary he was being insulting. To say that flamenco is synonomous with flamenco is not entirely accurate. If it were then the many Gypsy musicians from around the world and time such as Django,Stochelo Rosenberg or Asik Veysal and the many Oud-Saz-Baglama players living here in Turkey would be refered to as flamenco's. Would they not?

I wish all who share this space on this forum would visit Turkey. You will find some of the most amazing musicians and hear very sounds that are very flamenco. Even the call to prayer you will here in parts of Turkey sounds like a Flamenco singer-- Ayyyyeeeeeeee Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

If you trace the origins of flamenco, you will find an Arab Oud player whose name will be familiar to all. By the way alzapua is a direct homage to the Oud.

Peace and Grace to all.

Gurkan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2007 1:24:11
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to jrabbani

It sounds beautiful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2007 2:11:14
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Rain

rain
my point was in the context of spain, not other gypsy cultures, which i think is obvious from our discussions (or was I not clear enough?). so i stand by my statement. thanks for your input anyways.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2007 2:50:42
 
jrabbani

 

Posts: 192
Joined: Jun. 28 2006
From: Los Angeles

RE: ROMERITO!! (in reply to Guest

hey kev, hows the course work going? i was in the library at ucla doing some research for a professor, and stumbled across a book by Gilbert Chase "The Music of Spain" from 1953. Have you heard of it? I flipped through it and saw some interesting photos...anyways this is what he has to say about "spanish idioms"

"the product of a process of fusion and amalgamation that reached its culmination in the second half of the 18th century and the early part of the 19th. The elements so fused and amalgamated, largely under the influence of the scenic tonadilla, were threefold: first, there was the element of pure folk music,. essentially of rural origin; secondly, the element of urban street music, essentially popular but more heterogeneous in texture; and, thirdly, the conventional apparatus of instrumental and vocal technique, by this time developed to a point that might be called "modern.""
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2007 18:48:18
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