Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice

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Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice

Hi all,

Again, I am hoping to draw from the experience you guys have.

I have recently experienced some problems with the Marote p,m,p rasgueo. I have noticed that my thumb catches on the downstroke far too often. It seems that it didn't used to catch that way to the degree it does now. I may have neglected it for while.

At first I said well then, it's just that your nail is not shaped right, but I have done *some* testing, but to no avail.

My next thought was, how is the thumb engaging or striking the strings on the downstroke (Which is where the problem occurs)? At what angle? Is that the source of the problem? Maybe...

Is there anyone who feels like they can advise on this? How do you hold your hand with respect to the guitar (or also how do you hold your wrist) when doing this rasgueo? In detail, how would you describe the angle that the thumb hits the strings on the downstroke?

Thanks to all,

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2004 20:51:09

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony,

Eddie Lastra on the forum likely has one of the best PMP's of all of us. He may have some info for you.

I have it down pretty well. I was having the same problem on the down stoke. I don't remember doing anything to correct it other then playing it for hours. This is how I do it. I leave my hand in the picado-arpeggio position and rotate my hand at the wrist. I try not to move my arm. Although this is difficult, as the arm wants to move as the wrist rotates. By keeping it in this position, the thumb down stroke is in the same position as you would normally do a thumb down stoke and shouldn't hang up.

The other thing I do is lock my thumb back so I am not digging into the string on the down stroke. The last thing I find helps is keeping very tight movements back and forth. I usually try to hit only the top two or three strings (bass) with the thumb and the first two or three (treble) strings with the M finger. I find it sounds better and I have better control by keeping the rotation nice and compact.

Eddie will probably have a complete different approach then I. Hope it helps.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2004 23:27:51

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony,
I've been working on the p, m, p ras for awhile now and I'm finally getting it down. Actually, the Marote ras is p,am,p, but p,m,p is what I see used a lot in in Jerez and my teacher uses it all the time. Merengue de Cordoba uses p,x,p on his video. So there are a couple of variations. The most important things are to resist flicking your 'm' out and to barely touch the strings. Keep your hand relaxed, but try to maintain a consistent distance between the p and m without holding them real stiff. I rotate my hand inward a bit to get more thumb nail contact, as I file my nail on an angle to get more skin contact (and less nail) when playing arpegios and the like. The movement comes from the wrist and not the fingers. The real trick is to just 'kiss' the strings and not dig in. Once you're able to do that you'll have developed some control over the volume and intensity of the sound that you want.

I hope this helps some. A simple 2 minute demonstration would really help and save you a lot of time, but I don't have a video camara.
Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 0:52:25

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Speaking of Marote, did he record solo material? I haven't have much luck finding anything with him.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 1:34:47

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to TANúñez)

Tom,

He did! This quote is from a post Estela wrote at Flamenco-Teacher, it's original author is Norberto Torres - "En 1966 llega incluso a grabar en solista el sencillo Guitarras flamencas (Zafiro, Z-E 715) con cuatro cortes: taranto al Habichuela, bulerías del Albaicín, siguiriyas a Marote, soleares de la Mezquita, que completa con los sencillos". I have never seen nor heard of this before, it would be fun if someone made mp3s of it who has the vinyl in their collection.

Estela interviewed him shortly before he passed on and if I remember correctly (which I probably don't) asked him if he was going to do it. I think he'd considered it and ultimately may have if he'd had some more time.

The interview is on flamenco-world.com

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 2:04:59

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Phil)

Thanks to all for suggestions so far.

Actually, I do the p, am, p one more than just p,m,p. It seemed to have worked a year ago (like just before my son was born) but I seem to have probably left out some critical little detail.

I do remember that it was mostly a wrist movement (as I did it before).

When I can work on it, I'll focus on your suggestions. Hopefully Eddie can also chime in.

Thanks again,

Anthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 2:08:39

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to TANúñez)

I have several Marote recordings with Carmen Amaya, as an example. Furial Amaya is one LP/tape.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 3:54:02

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Anthony;

I might have to come down to pay you a visit one-day soon. I use several triplets. The way I play the so-called Marote triplet is:

1. Hold the right hand in a position with the pulgar, and Medio in a fixed position – relaxed, evenly spaced with the rest of the hand.

2. Begin with a straight wrist and forearm in a natural position.

3. The Medio will be in front of the pulgar slightly.

4. Pulgar up and strike the strings with the nail.

5. Medio down using the nail.

6. Pulgar down using the side of the pulgar and little or no nail.

7. Rotate the wrist and forearm slightly.

8. Produce an even sound.

There are many ways to play a triplet and I think I have a few on my web site. You could always pay that guy in Huelva $6 Euros and I am sure he would sell you my free information. Just ask him!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 4:06:48

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas Whiteley

You could always pay that guy in Huelva $6 Euros and I am sure he would sell you my free information. Just ask him!

Have you written him to ask where he got that material from?

Thanks Tom.

ANthony

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 16:36:05

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Hi Anthony

Is it perhaps possible that the strings you used first were higher tension strings?

I personal, find the Marote technique easyer to do with strings with a higher tension, when I play on a guitar with low tension strings, I have to get used to it, and my thumb sticks sometimes too.
Peter

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 19:26:23

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to gerundino63)

I have high tension strings on now.

I think it's an angle issue, just have to keep working at it.

Thanks though!

-A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 20:14:07

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

You'll get it practising with the Guitar Mute, guaranteed.

https://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/shop.php?&op_shop=show&id_prod=2326&id_cat=134

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 21 2004 20:24:10

eslastra

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paleto

Thanks to all for suggestions so far.

Actually, I do the p, am, p one more than just p,m,p. It seemed to have worked a year ago (like just before my son was born) but I seem to have probably left out some critical little detail.

I do remember that it was mostly a wrist movement (as I did it before).

When I can work on it, I'll focus on your suggestions. Hopefully Eddie can also chime in.

Thanks again,

Anthony

Paleto,

I've seen a couple of different ways that the Marote is executed. Some guys have a thumb that is perpendicular to the strings with a bent wrist. The thumb and fingers are mostly straight. This method is usually louder, but tends to snag the thumb more. Whenever I've tried playing this way, I'd always end up splitting my thumbnail, or watching it fly off in the distance

.

The other way, which Tom W. has already described, is more of a flat wrist and an angled thumb, with curved fingers. In addition to wrist movement, this type is also driven by a turning of the forearm, like turning a screwdriver. Depending on the speed or effect I want, my thumb angle changes from almost parallel (for smooth rolls), to about 45 degree (for more percussive rolls). Besides the P-m-P, I'll alternate between P-i-P, P-ma-P, P-im-P, P-ma-P, P-ax-P, and P-a-P. Took me a long time to develop these. I did this partially to get more mileage out of my fingernails, so they'd wear evenly. This type of rasgueado has a appetite for fingernails

Without actually seeing your execution, it's difficult to make suggestions, but if you're snagging a lot, you may be digging in too hard. Lighten up, the fingers should just kind of hover over the strings. The less resistance, the faster the roll. And don't be afraid to experiment with wrist and forearm positions, and finger combinations. Everyone's hands are different. You have to find the exact positions and fingerings that are suited for your hand.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted on how you're coming along.

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2004 0:21:23

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to eslastra)

Eddie;

Good points. You should create this technique like a butterfly moving on the strings. If you apply too much pressure you will snag a nail. Just "tickle" the strings". It is so easy to demonstrate in person but with words?

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2004 2:32:07

Pedoviejo

Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Can't add much to the above - at least by way of giving a written description. Butterflies just kissing the strings is about right. No strange positions - comfortable as much as possible is where it's at. Bill Glidden (Guillermo Rios) showed it to me first, before I met Juan from whom he learned it directly. I saw Juan from the other end of his sofa play it hundreds of times and it blew me away each time. No one could do it like him. Even Paco commented on his amazing thumb. If I had video'd it (i.e. if there had been video cassettes back then) I don't think you would have learned more. All I can add is when you practice (a) get a small dog yapping (b) play some inane daytime TV game show program in Spanish and (c) have a wife named Carmen come in to chat with you and you might have the right ambiente within which to learn the Marote Ras. At least that's the way Juan always did with me. I have a not so great quality music cassette or two somewhere around here recorded from those sessions - yapping dog, TV, Carmen et als. if I could figure out how to get it uploaded into digital for transmission. Probably would bore everyone to death anyway.

Pedito

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2004 3:03:35

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Paleto)

Paleto,
the main thing, like some of these gentleman said, is to lighten up. Volume does not come from tensing up your hand and muscling it up. Since your thumb is catching, lighten up your thumb. Feel like you are rotating your wrist with no muscle or tension in your fingers or thumb--they are just there for the ride.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2004 15:17:06

Paleto

Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA

RE: Juan Maya Marote rasgueado advice (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

A funny thing happened the other day. I did the Marote rasgueo and it worked well.

The problem?

My nail was too short. It had broken a few weeks ago, and the reason it was catching was that the length and shape were wrong. Now that it has grown out it works perfectly.

How funny, I used to do well, but since i have to play softly sometimes while my son sleeps on the other side of our small house, I hadn't been doing that rasgueado very much.

Anyway, it seems the problem solved itself...

Nevertheless, I'll still re-read all your advice and thanks.

Just wanted to follow up for you guys.

See ya,

-A

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2004 1:34:06