Reyes guitars

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Reyes guitars

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Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

Reyes guitars

I have a Reyes from 1981 in my workshop for some repair work. Needless to say I have taken some measurements and general notes about how it is made. My question to you more informed: is the Reyes guitars quite consistent regarding bracing system, thicknesses and over all attitude? Or is he, as so many other makers experimenting a lot?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2007 17:12:11

Haithamflamenco

Posts: 927
Joined: Mar. 6 2007
From: Bahrain

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

hi per,

common guys some body answer Per.

haitham

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2007 18:26:23

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Haithamflamenco)

Hi Per

I'm not really a Reyes expert, but as much as i know, he did not change his bracing pattern since the 70s.

He uses the 7 fan bracing pattern close to the one used by Santos Hernandez. He sometimes uses a bridge badge and sometimes not. I think that is the only inconsistant thing in his construction.

You may see the plan of a Reyes drawn by Tom Blackshear on www.luth.org

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2007 14:40:21

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per, I studied (as best as I could) my teacher's 1983 flamenco blanca. I have talked to Tom Blackshear in great depth about his drawings of the 2003 and we compared notes. I even sent him the top plans of the 83. They were pretty much the same. The only minor difference we could see was that the plantilla of the 83 was about 5mm shorter. About 485mm long. Everything else was about the same. The 2003 he studied had small braces or inserts between the middle 3 struts towards the bottom. Probably to prevent warping in this area. The 83' did not have these inserts. Other than that, it was pretty much consistent.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2007 15:15:44

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi guys, thanks for your replies that was pretty much what I hoped for. As a GAL member since long time I know of the Blackshear drawing and the guitar that I have in my workshop right now is very close to that drawing except for the bridge patch and the small funny inserts between the fans. It has seen better days but is still good enough to be the better than the five flamenco guitars I own, which are not bad. Actually they are pretty good, but the Reyes is more complete, more of everything, the essence of a good guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2007 17:04:36

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to TANúñez)

Hi Tom,

What is the shape/doming of your teachers Reyes top like?

I going built from the Blackshear plan but cannot make any sense from the plan about the shape of the top. The plan seems to indicate a flat top in the bridge area and some kind of dome betwen the back of the bridge and the end block, sounds wierd ( a lump at the very back of the guitar? ).

Thanks,
Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 2:35:44

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per,

I've asked Tom the same question as below, hopefully between the 2 I can make some sense of this.

What is the shape/doming of the Reyes top like?

I going built from the Blackshear plan but cannot make any sense from the plan about the shape of the top. The plan seems to indicate a flat top in the bridge area and some kind of dome betwen the back of the bridge and the end block, sounds wierd ( a lump at the very back of the guitar? ).

Thanks,
Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 2:38:02

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

My two cents on this issue is to get a radiused form and use it. Reyes may be building his tops flat and expecting the string tension to pull the top into a dome, which would be evident by a bulge behind the bridge, or he may be using an arch and the top collapsed in front of the bridge due to string tension. In either case it isn't advisable to build a top without arching as this imparts strength and stability. The basic plan I saw seemed straight forward enough and does not preclude using a radiused form when gluing on the braces. LMI sells them and by and large it is recomended to use a 25 foot radius for the top and a 15 foot radius for the back.

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 2:58:37

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to AndrewE)

AndrewE,

It's somewhat hard to describe in words so I'll post photos. Basically, you place a shim about 1/16 thick at the lower bout on a flat solera. This will dome this area behind the bridge ever so slightly. This leaves the top basically flat from the front of the bridge up the the upper bout. My teacher's 83 Reyes appeared to have been built this way as well.

I agree with Aaron's opinion though so I don't build this way. I used this method for the first two Reyes' I did but prefer to either use a dished out solera or brace in a radiused dish with makes a nice even dome. A little more work this way because you have to radius the glued edge of the sides where they meet the top and back so you get a nice fit. However, I glue the upper transverse bar flat. The following posts will have photos of the Reyes' method.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:22:08

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to aarongreen)

Thanks for the comments Aaron.

That's probably what i'll end up doing.
For the top I'll probably put the dish into my solera.

Even if you shape the braces to the dish your still going to get some springback, yes/no?

I'm thinking of adding 50% extra depth to the solera dish, I'm looking at getting a 1.5mm arch across the bridge, so the dished solera would be a little over 2mm across the bridge. Does the 25' raduis equate to a similar thing?

Do you shape your tentellones to match the top curvature?

Many thanks for the article you did in the GAL on fitting flamenco pegs. It can just in time for me to fit pegs to my first guitar, a Brune Barbero copy.

Have you seen the Bill Lewis Barbero (1943) plan sold by LMI. What are your thoughts on it. The plan refers to "another famous luthier" in parts of the plan (the fan bracing and elsewhere) but does not say who this is. Any idea?

Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:23:38

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to TANúñez)

Full solera with shim.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:24:45

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to TANúñez)

Closeup of shim.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:26:08

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to TANúñez)

Side view of shim.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:27:24

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to TANúñez)

Thanks Tom,

A photo's worth a thousand words, I finally get it!

Now that I understand what it is, I'll build it they way I did my Brune Barbero copy which is the way you and Aaron prefer.

How would you rate the sound of the Reyes guitars you've played and did you get a similar result from the ones you've made?

Thanks,
Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 4:44:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

a lot of Spanish builders (and myself) dont use radiussed forms for shaping the top. Instead we use a solera which has been scooped out to make the shape we want.
IMHO to use radiussed form will make it more difficult to make the strings parrallel to the sound board, an important issue in flamenco setup. Who like a 8mm stringheight at the bridge if its 10mm at the soundhole, the place where you put your right hand thumb????

The Lewis plan is good and will sound very nice if you build it well. I dont think it has anything to do with Barbero but is a standard modern 7 piece fan layout with closing struts using a Barbero plantilla. One thing though. Change the neckwidth, nut width and string spacing at the bridge to something more standard. Its very narrow.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 7:50:18

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders,

So does this mean that your solera has the same scooped out depth at the bridge as at the soundhole ? So your aiming for 8mm string height at the bridge and 8mm at the soundhole and then after the start of the soundhole does it taper off?

Can you explain the top shape a bit more including how the soundhole bars are shaped (flat?) and how the dome is tapered out.

Thanks,
Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 8:04:39

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

IMHO to use radiussed form will make it more difficult to make the strings parrallel to the sound board, an important issue in flamenco setup. Who like a 8mm stringheight at the bridge if its 10mm at the soundhole, the place where you put your right hand thumb????

Hi amigo Anders. So far, I have not had this problem. I place the bridge area of the top under the center of the radiused form. This way, the highest part will not be at the soundhole but under the bridge. I also radius the lower transverse bar. The result is pretty even on the top under the strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 12:10:43

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

I agree with Anders. I think we can take for sure that Reyes has built on a solera and "my" Reyes seem to confirm that. I is domed ca 2 mm just behind the bridge, it is "fallen in" in front of the bridge but the lower sound hole brace is radiused ca 1.5 mm across the guitar. The neck is forward set ca 2 mm.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 9:00:09

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi everybody

Thanks for the interesting replys on this issue. I have also contacted Tom Blackshear to enlighten the issue with the soundboard dome between bridge and endblock, but i either didn't asked at the right moment, or i didn't asked in the right way, but he wasn't at disposal to answer any questions related to the construction of the Reyes guitar.
Nevertheless i have learned a similar construction method in the meantime and it was at the Romanillos guitar making course in Sigüenza. Romanillos uses a solera with a ramp that is even higher than 2mm in the area between the bridge and the end block. I still didn't manage to complete my classical guitar that i have built on the course but the other guitars that i heard were all sounding very good. I have asked José if he thinks that this construction method might be appropriate for flamenco guitars too. His answer was as follwos: " For me there is no classical or flamenco guitar, for me there is a spanish guitar only". In fact he introduced us a raw unvarnished classical guitar build of cypress on the course. The guitar could have been used as flamenco guitar just the golpeador was missing. The guitar sounded just excellent with bright trebles and very nice projection.

See a picture of that guitar on my website:

http://www.spanishguitars.ch/home/image_zoom.php?show=Ml8xODg2X3FNTHlqVkNteG4uanBn

This post indicates, that it is the right way to go eventhough i wouldn't exagerate with the ramping on a flamenco guitar.

I'm now working on a Barba guitar but my next project will be dedicated to the Reyes design.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 19:16:47

AndrewE

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 6 2004

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per,

So what is the string height across the top (at soundhole and at saddle)?
What do you mean by "fallen in" in front of the bridge ? Are you saying it's concaved and similarly the lower sounhole brace concaved?
What is the top shape at the bridge? With a 2mm neck set i would think that the bridge would need to sit about 1.5mm above the plane to get a good action. Does this line up with the Reyes you've inspected?

Is the bridge flat or radiused?

What about the upper soundhole brace, is it flat or radiused?
Is the fingerboard tapered in the upper bout section or the same thickness the entire length?

Sorry I don't have any input to your original question, just many questions.

Thanks,
Andrew

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 23:48:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

I is domed ca 2 mm just behind the bridge, it is "fallen in" in front of the bridge but the lower sound hole brace is radiused ca 1.5 mm across the guitar.

Sounds like one of my guitars. I also radius the lower harmonic bar wit around 1,5mm and when you build light, its normal that the soundboard bends a tiny bit downwards between the bridge and the lower harmonic bar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2007 8:25:39

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to AndrewE)

The 1st string height at the saddle is 7 mm and at the soundhole 8 mm. By fallen in I mean just as Anders describes it. The lower soundhole brace is not concave but convex, i.e. radiused. The fingerboard is slightly tapered over the body.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 18 2007 9:51:01

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: Reyes guitars (in reply to Per Hallgren)

hi forumers, i'm not a luthier, but thought i'd add my two cents here: i own a blackshear reyes, and have owned a 1987 reyes. tom's version uses a smaller dome than i've seen on other guitars, and its highest point is slightly behind the bridge. i can't recall exactly, but i thought i read on tom's site, or he told me, that he picked up this technique from studying rodriguez guitars. the reyes i owned and others i've played didn't strike me as highly domed either, for the record. lastly, a plug for blackshear: in my opinion his reyes version is as good as or better than the original. i sold my reyes and kept the blackshear.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2007 1:17:33