A traditional rosette design

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Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

A traditional rosette design

Hi, this is from a guitar that I stringed today. I like to make traditional mosaic designs. This pattern I saw first at a Manuel Ramirez guitar and then at a Miguel Rodriguez. I guess that if Rodriguez could borrow the design from Ramirez I could do the same... The border is my own though.

As you see the guitar is still unfinished. After some time, a month or two, of playing, evaluation and eventual adjustments I take off the strings and french polish the guitar, but I wanted to share this while we are discussing rosettes of other types.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 15:35:23

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Ooops, the picture wasn't that good.

Here's a new try:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 15:39:32

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per,

I think it looks great! and perhaps I like the first picture better, sometimes you need a little distance to get the picture. If you know what I mean.

Its gonna look even better after the FP..

Rob.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 15:57:31

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to r0bbie)

Per,

That is a beautiful rosette.
Can I ask, do you feel it is necessary to have the pattern symetrical?
I notice a lot of makers go for a very geometric rosette which throws up the fact they don't seem to worry about it not being the same either side of the fingerboard. I notice this with yours.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 16:35:26

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

That looks great Per. Very traditional and elegant.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 17:10:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Thats a very elegant and very traditional rosette.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 18:12:15

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Well, the only thing that isn't symmetric is the rope pattern and the only way to do that symmetric is to make a split at the centerline or a herringbone pattern, preferable split at CL. I have done this many times (as in the one below for example), but every time I need a week on vacation afterwards. Folks, that is really very much more work, and difficult, for little appreciation, but I would do that for you Jim

... for free... The mosaic isn't that hard to learn to do reasonable good(even though it is much work compared to buying a commercial made one for €9) , but the split herringbone is really a pain in the ****.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 19:09:03

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Thats a very elegant and very traditional rosette.

Yes, that's me, very elegant and traditional.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 19:10:08

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Beautiful workmanship Per and first class design.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 19:46:07

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

Well, the only thing that isn't symmetric is the rope pattern

Sorry! Per, might be you missunderstand my question

I noticed on your photograph that the pattern was different on either side on the fretboard (at the top of the rosette) and I wondered why this was the case with lots of makers.
I imagined it was just a case of placing the rosette on the guitar and making sure it was equal each side, but I know it might be more complex than this.
It's beautiful, I'm not complaining just interested to know.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 19:53:07

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Oh, I see, understand your question now (I think at least I do, time is late, bottle empty...). The difference on each side of the fingerboard depends on where one start the inlay. You know, the rosette is mounted into the top tile by tile, not as a completed entity. Since every mosaic tile is cut by hand to get the right angle towards the previous one the matematics for this operation is way above my head, if at all possible. When all the tiles are glued into the routed channel in the top the border is inlaid as a separate operation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 22:32:40

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

That's beautiful, Per. I just took a closer look at the rosettes on my guitars, and realized that there is quite a difference. I one (a high-end Paracho maker), the tiles are about 1mm and aren't quite square; yours are all square and significantly less than 1mm -- more like my older Spanish guitars from the 60's and 70's.

Question: there must a limit to how wide a rosette can be before it begins to interfere with the tonal quality of the soundboard. I really love the detail in a fine rosette, and would like to make a wider one, but don't want to affect the sound. Any thoughts? Maybe, since it is between two relatively heavy transverse struts anyway, it has little effect on the sound...?

I suppose that the assembled larger pieces of the mosaic (I think they're called logs?) also have to be tapered slightly to fit together so they cover the circle, and the wider the rosette, the more obvious that taper becomes, which makes the taper more difficult to handle without compromising the design. Or is this not a problem in a wider rosette?

Anyway -- beautiful job. It must be very satisfying to make the whole thing -- even the rosette. I wonder if any luthier goes so far as to make their own machines?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 9 2007 22:44:13

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

You know, the rosette is mounted into the top tile by tile, not as a completed entity.

The fact is that nowadays many persons have forgotten what the work of making a rosette once was. They imagine these serial produced rings that you can buy in russia or Korea and that an enourmous amount of builders, (famous and expensive ones as well) use.

The fact that the rosette is not 100% entirely perfect makes it interesting to me. Makes me think that its NOT a prefabricated 15$ thing like the ones you see in modern Condes etc. Also a lot of handbuilders use prefab rosettes. (I think the big mayority.

I also prefer that the rope is not symetrical. It gives it more life. To much symetry is not interesting.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2007 6:58:36

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

Question: there must a limit to how wide a rosette can be before it begins to interfere with the tonal quality of the soundboard. I really love the detail in a fine rosette, and would like to make a wider one, but don't want to affect the sound. Any thoughts? Maybe, since it is between two relatively heavy transverse struts anyway, it has little effect on the sound...?

I think that there is an estetic limit as well. I prefer rosettes that are around 16-20 mm wide. If you go wider the look will be that in some guitars from the 19th century, they will look antique. If you go more narrow than ca 15-16 mm the look will be unfamiliar too, maybe as on a steelstring guitar.

To answer your question. The rosette is usually not much wider than the reinforcement around the soundhole. This reinforcement has dual purpose. It reinforce the top where the rosette is inlaid and it compensate for the weakness that the hole introduce. I believe that the traditional design of rosette, reinforcement and soundhole is in balance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2007 9:52:24

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

The fact that the rosette is not 100% entirely perfect makes it interesting to me. Makes me think that its NOT a prefabricated 15$ thing like the ones you see in modern Condes etc. Also a lot of handbuilders use prefab rosettes. (I think the big mayority.

I agree. That is one of the reasons why I insist on doing my own rosettes. In handmade items there are always iregularities, imperfections etc. that makes the item interesting to the eye. A skilled crafts person can create a certain "perfect imperfectness" that adds a wonderful life to the item. Maybe it is too pretentious to call this art, but it is certainly the highest form of craft. Speaking of looks that is.

But think of it in sound instead and you will find the same phenomenon. A sound from a guitar that is too "polished" is often uninteresting to us. This is maybe a good start for a new thread?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2007 10:02:26

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

Maybe it is too pretentious to call this art, but it is certainly the highest form of craft.

In the design parts of an instrument, thats where we produce art. rosette, color, headstock and might even be the heel which is the most sculpturous part of a guitars. The body shape... Mostly its just a reproduction of our own or someone elses plantilla.

Perfection is always boring. In design, in sound and in woman

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2007 15:47:32

Sammy K

Posts: 30
Joined: Dec. 2 2004
From: Finland

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2007 16:51:46

Guest

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Funny thing is that I really like commercial factory rosettes: my favourite of all time is the butterfly pattern which Gerundino was so fond of (Gerundino63 uses it as his avatar). I remember it could be bought from Barber Woods for 300 pesetas!

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2007 10:02:25

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Guest)

One estetic problem with some rosettes, handmade or commercial, is that they are too complicated in the pattern. I believe in a certain simplicity and a "clean" look, but that is simply a matter of taste of course. Haven't seen the Gerundino/Barber rosette yet although I have had business with Barber for 15 years. Shall look it up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2007 10:21:25

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

Haven't seen the Gerundino/Barber rosette yet

Per, I have two Gerundinos and they both have commercial rosettes.
I am also very lucky to have two Reyes and they have the finest hand made rosettes that I have seen (one is symetrical one is not) I don't know if this is correct, but I notice that older Reyes guitars always seem to have a thumb mark visible on the rosette, a sort of 'smudge' and I feel this is because they are hand made and 'flame grilled' in the traditional way, not micro waved. It's as if the dye is still alive and pourus is some way that it reacts to the moisture of the hand, after some years of playing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2007 21:54:50

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Per, I have two Gerundinos and they both have commercial rosettes.
I am also very lucky to have two Reyes and they have the finest hand made rosettes that I have seen

I once asked in another forum if people/guitarists/"customers" really cared about the rosette. Silly question. Of course I got as many opinions as answers. Some really care, some even hardly know what a rosette is. Personally I have that idealistic/romantic feel about making guitars unique, but that is of course old fashioned and without significance for the music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 5:57:51

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Jim

Are you sure those rosettes are handmade? You´ll be surprised if you knew the amount of High level builders here sending a pattern to Korea and receiving 500 perfect (more or less) rings. You can also send a pattern to russia, pay some more and get less but higher quality..... The russian ones are absolutely perfect and very pretty. He also makes traditional Ramirez, Rodriguez and other more simple rosettes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 7:34:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

A Hermann Hauser copy rosette from Russia

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 7:43:31

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Per Hallgren)

A Ramirez copy from Russia.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 7:45:42

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Guest)

How can you tell if it is a factory made vs. hand made? What is this one?

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 16:38:39

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to tk)

It's hard to tell but a lot of factory made rosettes are out there. Every once in a while you'll come across a rosette on a guitar that you've seen available for sale.

I'm pretty sure Reyes' is handmade by him. I've only seen that design on his guitars. It's also possible that one of the rosette makers makes this rosette specifically for him by his design but I doubt it. He's a traditionalist all the way and I'd be very surprise to find out his rosettes are factory made.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 17:05:29

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to tk)

One clue is sometimes the size of the mosaic sticks. If they're VERY small (i.e. .6mm), it's probably Russian. The smallest I know of that are generally available are .8mm.

Not always conclusive, but...
Norman

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 17:32:42

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

I'm pretty sure Reyes' is handmade by him. I've only seen that design on his guitars

Reyes 75' rosette

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 21:05:42

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

I'm pretty sure Reyes' is handmade by him. I've only seen that design on his guitars

Reyes 87 Rosette

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 21:07:02

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: A traditional rosette design (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Are you sure those rosettes are handmade?

Hi Anders,
I know what you mean. It's just that the 75 and 87 guitars I own have very delicate rosettes with very small pixelated squares. So delicate in fact that they jump out for their quality. They are both well known Reyes designs but I guess he could have had them made in batches by someone else?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2007 21:13:46